You are not logged in. [Log In] www.byzcath.org » Forums » General Discussion Forums » 5. Scripture and Patristic Writings » Psalm 51?
Register User       Forum List       Calendar       Active Topics       Search       FAQ
Site Links
ByzCath.org Home
Latest News
Liturgical Calendar
Lectionary
Newest Members
Keithg29, brick22, BensGal, Lady Byzantine, Eli Akim, Kirk, Jerzy, Rusyn53, Lou, evergreen, old orthodox, PresJuliana, Heracleides, Addai, Jablinka
3134 Registered Users
Who's Online
16 registered (byzantina, griego catolico, Katie g, John K, novocilman, dwight, Heracleides, Stephen Barrow, Byzantine TX, Amadeus, ByzBob, Ung-Certez, Magyar, theophilus, Stephanos I, 1 invisible) and 255 anonymous users online.
details
Private Forums
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums: The Deacon’s Door (for deacons and deacon candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum (for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for access.
Latest Photo
Patriarch Gregorios III and Fr. Archimandrite Theodoro
Forum Stats
3134 Members
20 Forums
21730 Topics
283963 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Page 1 of 2 12>
Topic Options
#276207 - 01/31/08 03:28 AM Psalm 51?
Dandelion Offline
BANNED
Member


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Henderson, NV, U.S.A.
I am not sure which Psalm it is,

* the Psalm where it says either " out of sin/guilt I was born" .
What does it exactly mean?, for years I had a misunderstanding of this passage,
and I do not know if it is left up to the individual to figure it out, or wait until it is explained to me before it is too late to change my outlook on life about it.

*why would I perceive this specific passage has led me to believe that the sin I was born from was do to the conjugal relations of my parents conceiving me?

any insight would be "greatly" appreciated \:\)

Dandelion
Top
#276209 - 01/31/08 04:41 AM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion]
Highlander Offline
learner
Member


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 147
Loc: North of Scotland
Dear Dandelion
This is Psalm 50 (51 in the Hebrew).
The Douai version reads:
"For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me."
Where modern versions have something like:
"remember, I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception." (That particular rendering is the New Jerusalem Bible, but the New International version is similar.)
The more literal rendering of the Hebrew in the older versions can lead to a misunderstanding of the kind you refer to.
Top
#276210 - 01/31/08 04:57 AM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Highlander]
Hieromonk Elias Administrator Offline
Administrator
Member


Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1728
Loc: Pennsylvania
Dear, in Christ,

I take this verse to heart, and it speaks to my own experience. We are born already broken, flawed, and in need of healing. We are born into a world that is broken, flawed, and in need of healing. We need to be made whole again, even before we are conscious of our brokenness.

I don't take it to teach so much about the way I am created (an act of God and my parents), as much as a statement that from the very beginning of my existence, I need God.

The verse names all human experience, and points to the reason our Saviour has come. He has come to heal, cure, and make us whole again. And everyone who is created, from the moment he is created, stands in need of salvation in Christ.

Thanks be to God, it is offered freely to all!

the unworthy,
Elias
Top
#276224 - 01/31/08 08:51 AM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Highlander]
Dandelion Offline
BANNED
Member


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Henderson, NV, U.S.A.
Thank You,

Could it also be possible due to different interpreting translations, misunderstandings about what scriptures says & mean effect our thinking & reasoning?

Deanna

Edited by Dandelion (01/31/08 09:01 AM)
Top
#276226 - 01/31/08 08:57 AM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Hieromonk Elias]
Dandelion Offline
BANNED
Member


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Henderson, NV, U.S.A.
Elias,

Thank You for explaining this verse to me.
\:\)
now it makes more sense, and not so contradictory in thought about one's creation from God.

Peace be to you,
Deanna

Edited by Dandelion (01/31/08 09:01 AM)
Top
#276266 - 01/31/08 12:04 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Highlander]
lanceg Offline
Member


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 690
Loc: Minneapolis
 Originally Posted By: Highlander
Dear Dandelion
This is Psalm 50 (51 in the Hebrew).
The Douai version reads:
"For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me."
Where modern versions have something like:
"remember, I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception." (That particular rendering is the New Jerusalem Bible, but the New International version is similar.)
The more literal rendering of the Hebrew in the older versions can lead to a misunderstanding of the kind you refer to.


On a technical note, the Douay translation above is actually to be preferred by Byzantine Christians. Although translated from the Latin, the Douay version here matches the rendering of the Septuagint version, the official Old Testament of the Byzantine Church. In the Byzantine Tradition, we understand the passage in the way Hieromonk Elias explains above.


Blessings,

Lance

A Byzantine Christian in a Postmodern World

Edited by lanceg (01/31/08 12:05 PM)
Top
#276287 - 01/31/08 03:01 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Hieromonk Elias]
theophan Moderator Offline
Moderator
Member


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2685
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Father Elias:

Father bless!!

Thank you for that very helpful understanding of this section of the Psalm.

The translation I memorized says " . . . in sin did my mother conceive me . . ." It makes it very difficult to explain to others who have read this rendering because it seems to imply that the God-given blessing of marital relations within a faithful marriage is somehow sinful when we know from Genesis that God has blessed the marriage relationship when He says, "Be frutiful and multiply . . ." I'll print this out and put copies into my prayerbook and Scripture.

May the Lord continue to bless your service to His People.

BOB

Edited by theophan (01/31/08 03:02 PM)
Top
#276291 - 01/31/08 03:32 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion]
Terry Bohannon Online content
Member


Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 1403
Loc: Houston, TX USA
Dandelion,

That can affect a read, but what may be a greater factor is the spiritual maturity by which we approach the meaning of the psalm. It's a life-long approach; not just to the psalms, but for how we read scripture as well as with how we live.

Have you read any of the Fathers? I'm reading St. Chrysostom's homilies on Matthew and have found myself constantly humbled by how the Saint reads scripture. I don't know if I can look at a modern commentary with the same amount of trust as I did before I began to appreciate the Fathers.

Terry

Edited by Terry Bohannon (01/31/08 03:41 PM)
Top
#276306 - 01/31/08 05:08 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Terry Bohannon]
Pani Rose Offline
Member


Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 7513
Loc: Irondale,AL
We have been using Fr. Custer's book on the Scriptures from a Byzantine Perspective in adult ed at Church. With it, we are using the Douey and then using the Hebrew, Arabic (since the Church is mostly Middle Eastern) - looking at Church and Jewish understanding, and drawing from the other languages in with the relationship to the New Testament. It has really been enlighting to gain a bit of understanding on how things that seem to be one way in our understanding, when we go back and look at these languages what they really meant. Very interesting it is \:D
_________________________
Pani Rose
Lord Jesus Christ Son of the Living God have mercy on me a sinner


Top
#276307 - 01/31/08 05:09 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion]
Highlander Offline
learner
Member


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 147
Loc: North of Scotland
Yes, and this is exactly why it is impossible to accept the sola sriptura idea that scripture is self-explanatory
Top
#276311 - 01/31/08 05:29 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Pani Rose]
Terry Bohannon Online content
Member


Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 1403
Loc: Houston, TX USA
You read Arabic? A professor friend of mine found Arabic to be a more difficult language to learn than Hebrew.

Terry
Top
#276317 - 01/31/08 06:27 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Terry Bohannon]
Pani Rose Offline
Member


Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 7513
Loc: Irondale,AL
 Originally Posted By: Terry Bohannon
You read Arabic? A professor friend of mine found Arabic to be a more difficult language to learn than Hebrew.

Terry


Terry \:D St George is Melkite. Most of the people in the Church are Lebonese or Palastenian or some Middle Eastern Country with a splash of us Europeans \:D So no, I don't read it, I guess after being around it for so many years I can understand a bit of it. It is truly a blessing.

What is awesome, is during Holy Week, when they sing the lamentaions in different Arabic dialects along with the English. The mournfulness of the language sung while lamenting is very 'startling' in it's own way, and has a tendency to make everyone take a step back, take a very deep look, and not take anything for granted. They are very beautiful.
_________________________
Pani Rose
Lord Jesus Christ Son of the Living God have mercy on me a sinner


Top
#276323 - 01/31/08 07:06 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Pani Rose]
Marian Offline
inactive
Member


Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 809
Loc: +
Dear Sister Pani Rose,

I would love to listen to lamentations sung in Arabic during the Holy Week.

Please, could you share a link with such Church songs?

Thank you!

Brotherly love, in Christ,

Marian+
Top
#276335 - 01/31/08 09:14 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Terry Bohannon]
Dandelion Offline
BANNED
Member


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Henderson, NV, U.S.A.
hi Terri,

I thought so, and yes spiritual maturity is also an important factor.
Do you think that through proper interpretation of scripture can help form a mature understanding of what the scriptures are suppose to actually mean?.

Thank You,

Deanna
Top
#276338 - 01/31/08 09:37 PM Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion]
Administrator Administrator Offline
Administrator
Member


Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 4505
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Dandelion
hi Terri,

I thought so, and yes spiritual maturity is also an important factor.
Do you think that through proper interpretation of scripture can help form a mature understanding of what the scriptures are suppose to actually mean?.

A very good point. Proper understanding of Scripture is a very important part of spiritual growth. And so is prayer. Your praying of the psalms leads to desiring a good understanding of them. And that leads to spiritual growth.
Top
Page 1 of 2 12>


Moderator:  Father Deacon Ed, theophan 
Hop to:
My Cookies · Mark all read Powered by UBB.threads™ Contact Us · www.byzcath.org · Top

Generated in 0.134 seconds in which 0.059 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2008. All rights reserved.