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#277366 - 02/07/08 02:20 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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Do we have the Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts or Things? I think Gifts an improvement.
The designation in the Greek and Slavonic does not have a word corrresponding to Gifts nor, for that matter, to Things. Things might sound nebulous but Gifts adds more than what is present in the Greek and Slavonic, which convey the sense using just the form of a neuter-plural adjective.
Dn. Anthony
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#277372 - 02/07/08 02:50 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: ajk]
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Prester John
Member
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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More like "the Holies for the Holy?"
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#277376 - 02/07/08 03:13 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Prester John]
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mwbonline
Member
Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 39
Loc: Roanoke, VA
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Why would the Orthodox want to use a Protestant Bible? I understand the Greek basis but at the same time, what did they use up until the 16th century? Isn't there a truly Orthodox translation, or, did they use the Vulgate. Using a Protestant Bible seems bad judgement to me.
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#277377 - 02/07/08 03:23 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: ajk]
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Administrator
Administrator
Member
Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 4505
Loc: Virginia
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Do we have the Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts or Things? I think Gifts an improvement. The designation in the Greek and Slavonic does not have a word corrresponding to Gifts nor, for that matter, to Things. Things might sound nebulous but Gifts adds more than what is present in the Greek and Slavonic, which convey the sense using just the form of a neuter-plural adjective. Dn. Anthony
Well stated.
The noun "gifts" is not in the Slavonic or the Greek, and so it should not be in the English.
Yes, that makes it ambiguous in the English. But is also ambiguous in the Slavonic and the Greek. An exact translation preserves the ambiguity of the original, and the 1964 translation does this amazingly well.
To 'guess' and opt for one meaning or another, doesn't faithfully translate the ambiguity, but is a gloss.
We deserve an exact translation. Exacting translations preserve even the ambiguity of the original.
We also deserve pastoral sensitivity. Changes should be made only to improve literal accuracy, and should be respectful of what has been memorized over the past 40 years.
Unnecessary change harms souls.
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#277412 - 02/07/08 05:22 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Administrator]
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Serge Keleher
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 2937
Loc: Dublin
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Since my name has been invoked, I appreciate the aversion to "things" - "thing" is an overused word in modern English - but it does still serve a legitimate purpose.
I suppose my preferred translation, or at least the translation which best fits the criteria I prefer, is "The Holies to the holy"!.
The reference to the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts is persuasive, but not entirely convincing. However, the uniting of the ecphonesis "Ta Agia tis agiois" with the elevation of the Lamb would make it difficult to dispute that the phrase refers to the Eucharistic Gifts.
Beyond that, I shall check again in the relevant volume of Taft.
Now, back to the Bible. While I share the preference for the Revised Standard Version, when it comes to the Old Testament we need a serious, freshly-done translation of the LXX, taking into account what Taft has aptly termed the "sitz im Gottesdienst". I'm not opposed to consulting other translations - it would be foolish not to do so - but ultimately our Church tradition has its own criteria.
Fr. Serge
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#277420 - 02/07/08 05:34 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Prester John]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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More like "the Holies for the Holy?"
... This discussion ... is about the correct translation of "Svjataja svjatym".
We just can't do in English what the more inflected languages can do with a few words.
The Slavonic I believe is just a literal rendering of the Greek.
The Greek has ta hagia tois hagiois. ta and tois are definite articles which Slavonic does not have.
hagiois is a dative plural masculine or neuter; the dative has the sense of to or for (or sometimes by means of). The masculine plural also by context can be understood as standing for both male and female.
hagia is neuter plural nominative, accusative or vocative
Each word is an inflected plural, so it's like
Holies Holies
that is
(the) Holies [nominative plural neuter] [to/for] (the) Holies [dative, masculine & plural=(male+female)]
Thus:
Holy (Things=neuter) to/for Holy (Ones=male+female).
So, I would say, for instance,
Holy Things to/for the Holy (or to/for Holy Ones).
Dn. Anthony
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