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#277435 - 02/07/08 06:36 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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... but a proper translation of the actual Slavonic text "Svyateye" (Svyatym) in English would be, literally, "That which is Holy."... "Svyateye" resembles in tone and style a non-descript statement of "That which is Holy" in the same sense as "I Am" as God told Moses when asked His Name.
Even though this cannot apply to any English translation, the anachronistic Ukrainian translation(s) tend to keep the Slavonic words where appropriate, since people wisely realize there are some ancient words that are best left alone, such as "Svyateye Svyatym" ...
I'm not understanding the point here. I don't know about "anachronistic Ukrainian" but the Slavonic is link (see last line of page 264).
I unfortunately have not formally studied Church Slavonic, but I'm looking at Archbishop Alypy's GRAMMAR of the CHURCH SLAVONIC LANGUAGE and I see for hard declension adjectives inflected forms that are the same as in the "Svjataja svjatym" in the above link, and these forms correspond to those indicated for the Greek as outlined in my previous post.
So it seems all the more that the Slavonic is just trying to be as literal as possible a rendering of the Greek.
Dn. Anthony
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#277460 - 02/07/08 08:52 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Prester John]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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More like "the Holies for the Holy?"
Yes! I meant to comment before that I think this captures the very succinct sense of the Greek and Slavonic if one understands "Holies" as referring to something for which neuter gender is appropriate, and that "Holy" has the {collective} sense of a plural, i.e. males+females.
With that understanding, I'd say it is a very nice rendering.
Dn. Anthony
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#277508 - 02/08/08 01:34 AM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Serge Keleher]
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Serge Keleher
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 2937
Loc: Dublin
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Since I did not use the phrase "the Holy of holies" which Alex seems to have attributed to me, I also don't know what its relevance here might be.
As I indicated, "Sitz im Gottesdienst" is an expression coined by Father Archimandrite Robert Taft. It means the liturgical context in which one finds a Biblical phrase or expression.
Fr. Serge
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#277706 - 02/09/08 11:19 AM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Administrator]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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The noun "gifts" is not in the Slavonic or the Greek, and so it should not be in the English.
Yes, that makes it ambiguous in the English. But is also ambiguous in the Slavonic and the Greek. An exact translation preserves the ambiguity of the original, and the 1964 translation does this amazingly well.
To 'guess' and opt for one meaning or another, doesn't faithfully translate the ambiguity, but is a gloss.
Exactly, gifts is an interpretation and as such explains too much, limiting what is not spelled out in the original to an assumed specific meaning that is obviously not intended -- otherwise one would find the Greek or Slavonic word for gifts.
But how else to translate "Darov" but "Gifts?"
This is coming at it from the opposite approach: The expectation of finding a word in the Greek or Slavonic because it is in the English and is translated as "Gifts." This is a reasonable expectation but the problem is that there is no such word in the original language version.
In an analogous way, one would be hard pressed to come up with the word anthropous/chelovik in the creed given the present translation which has just "for us" rather than "for us xxx." Ironically, in this case a word is there in the original, I would say even a very significant, theologically important word, and it in effect is ignored -- is absent, certainly abandoning the full force of the meaning of the original -- in the current translation.
Dn. Anthony
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#277711 - 02/09/08 12:02 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: ajk]
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Serge Keleher
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 2937
Loc: Dublin
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But how else to translate "Darov" but "Gifts?"
Darov does indeed mean "gifts" (in the genitive plural). But since "Darov" does not occur in the ecphonesis "Ta Agia tis Agiis", I fail to grasp the relevance to the present discussion.
Fr. Serge
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#277713 - 02/09/08 12:27 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Serge Keleher]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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But how else to translate "Darov" but "Gifts?" Darov does indeed mean "gifts" (in the genitive plural). But since "Darov" does not occur in the ecphonesis "Ta Agia tis Agiis", I fail to grasp the relevance to the present discussion. Fr. Serge
It is relevant to the discussion because "gifts" is in the RDL translation. The question is rather, what is it relevance of "gifts" in the RDL translation to the intent of the Greek/Slavonic original?
Dn. Anthony
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#277717 - 02/09/08 01:22 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
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asianpilgrim
Member
Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Philippines
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Dear and Esteemed Administrator,
I certainly agree with your point on following the Church in this!
Hats off to you as you are in the forefront of dealing with these difficult issues that make someone like me so very happy that I worship in a "tried and true" foreign tongue!
I had just read the new Basilian Horologion in Ukrainian - it's not a translation but a tragedy.
Cheers,
Alex
Why is it a tragedy? More Latinizations?
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#277726 - 02/09/08 03:32 PM
Re: Ta aghia tis aghies
[Re: lanceg]
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Diak
Moderator
Member
Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 6189
Loc: Kansas
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Regarding the Ukrainian translational issues, these are apples and oranges compared to the RDL. In most cases the newer UGCC translation (the 1988 Synodal translation) is closer to recent Ukrainian Orthodox translations ("viki vichniy","Hospodevi pomolimsya", the translation of the Our Father, etc.) than the "archaic" Ukrainian.
It is as much an issue with familiarity as anything else. The older Patriach Josyp (Slipiy) translation is what everyone grew up with and knows. I prefer it not because of issues of precision, accuracy, etc. but simply that is how I learned it, learned the music to those texts, etc. and it is closer to Slavonic - really for no other reasons. When I try to sing the newer the older still wants to pop into my head. 
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Moderator: Father Anthony
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