My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?

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#278214 - 02/12/08 01:13 PM My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
Pilgrim Dave Pilgrim Dave Junior Member Registered: 11/15/07 Posts: 2 Loc: Saint Joseph, MI	This is my version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? First of all, thanks to all who participate in this forum. I have learned much from you all through my lurking. You demonstrate a tremendous amount of charity and humility in your interactions. It’s a good thing, too, because you never really know who is out there watching, and reading your thoughts many months or years after you’ve posted them, people just like me. My family’s journey from “Evangelicalism” toward the Apostolic Communion is definitely headed East. So we are at a fork in the road: EC or EO? (Perhaps I should have posted this in East-N-East.) My heart says EC, so that I can be Orthodox in faith and praxis for all of the reasons so eloquently described here in this forum, yet be in communion with Rome, perhaps so that I can be in communion with those that I know personally that are RC as much as being in communion with the See of Peter. (I don’t know any Orthodox personally, although I would be happy for that to change. That’s just where I live. All politics/religion are local? Maybe.) So while my heart is in the East, my head is unsure between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. As I have read several basic testimonials/apologetics/summaries/explanations/polemics from the Catholic (admittedly, primarily RC, just given what tends to be out there) and the Orthodox viewpoints. As I have tried to process it all, a thought came to me: this is my version of Pascal’s wager. So with apologies to Pascal, and apologies to you all for this gross oversimplification, here is my wager: - If the Orthodox are right, and I become Catholic, I miss the mark. I am really not in the Church. While perhaps the Orthodox faithful may not state it so directly, the sacraments/mysteries that I partake of as a RC/EC, aren’t really valid. (And truly, RC, EC, or EO, it is Christ fully present in these mysteries that draws us to this point in the road.) I lose. Perhaps not a 100% loss, but close. Let’s say I gain 10%. - If the Catholics are right, and I am Orthodox, I am really, really close to the fullness of the faith. I lose only a little. Let’s say I gain 90%. - If EO are correct: EO 100% vs. RC 10%. If RC are correct: RC 100% vs. EO 90%. - Therefore, I should place my chips on EO. I look forward to hearing everyone’s comments, helping me with my flawed logic, poor understanding, and dim vision of the Light of the East. Remember, as neither RC/EC or EO, I am coming at this with a relatively clean slate. (At least as clean as my slate can be before my first confession!) Routinely, I have very little time during life to get on line, so I may not respond expediently. Thank you for your prayers for my family and I on our journey. A pilgrim, and a sinner, Dave
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#278218 - 02/12/08 01:24 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: Pilgrim Dave]
Pani Rose Pani Rose Member Registered: 11/06/01 Posts: 7513 Loc: Irondale,AL	I was trying to remember the name of the philospher Dr. Beckwith used while speaking at a conference this weekend. A recent 'revert' to the Catholic Church, his said his final decision came down to this philosphers theory. And I am not certain how clear my memory is, but it went something like this... After the guy died, they found his theory as to why he should enter the Church. That when everything else is said and done, it is not up to the Catholic Church to prove that she is right, but to man to prove that she is wrong. Thereby, there was no reason not to enter the Church. Ok now will someone come and fix what I said $\:D$ Thanks! Dr Beckwiths page and his blog is always very interesting http://www.francisbeckwith.com/ _________________________ Pani Rose Lord Jesus Christ Son of the Living God have mercy on me a sinner
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#278221 - 02/12/08 01:31 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: Pani Rose]
Orthodox Catholic Orthodox Catholic Member Registered: 11/05/01 Posts: 22048 Loc: Canada	Dear Dave, Becoming EC immediately, if that is possible for you, would help you begin the process of settling in the East. You could have the best of both worlds. Ask God to guide you, and He will take you to wherever HE wants you to be. Alex
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#278242 - 02/12/08 02:16 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: Orthodox Catholic]
AMM AMM Member Registered: 04/04/05 Posts: 2504 Loc: PA	Shouldn't the Copts and Armenians be on the menu of "true churches"? I see no reason not to consider them. One thing Protestant seekers may not exactly like, but will certainly run in to, is that for most (if not nearly all) people - Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc. - the church is as much a cultural association as it is anything else. People in Poland and Greece are not racking their brains with questions of true churches and conversion. They are what they are.
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#278252 - 02/12/08 02:34 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: Orthodox Catholic]
peso73 peso73 Junior Member Registered: 01/26/08 Posts: 29 Loc: Los Angeles, CA	Hi Dave, I am Roman Catholic right now, but feeling drawn to the east for the same reasons I was drawn towards the Roman Catholic church, the spirituality and holiness brought forth from the church's externals, the liturgy, the mass, or more recently divine liturgy, made and make me feel I am truly in the House of God, a house of prayer; I chose the Roman Catholic church from an agnostic period of @ 12 years or so, being raised "non-demoninational" christian, in one of those house-church things one hears about... :p the apologetics, starting w/ C.S. Lewis, and ending w/ catholic radio, Catholic Answers, EWTN, etc...I made the decision that it was either catholic or some kind of universalist unitarianism or something, basically a thesistic agnosticism, so into the RCC I dove, getting baptised in 2001 Easter vigil..... But now I am discovering the east, and like I said,I feel it is calling me towards itself, I have attended only a couple D.L.s so far, but plan on continuing and of course praying along the way.....I have read and considered the E.O. positions against the E.C. and R.C. positions, and the E.O. positions would almost have had me except they allow divorce, and remarrige which is so specifically against the bible, and opens a theological can of worms I am not ready to smoosh around in right now... So all that being said I agree w/ Alex, because you get the beauty and tradition and spirituality of the East, and get to remain in communion with Rome, as the church was for the first 1000 years, for the most part.....
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#278261 - 02/12/08 02:50 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: AMM]
Orthodox Catholic Orthodox Catholic Member Registered: 11/05/01 Posts: 22048 Loc: Canada	Dear AMM, Important point! Alex
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#278262 - 02/12/08 03:00 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: peso73]
Orthodox Catholic Orthodox Catholic Member Registered: 11/05/01 Posts: 22048 Loc: Canada	Dear peso73, Well, you can also join the EC's (there are Coptic and Armenian Catholics too re: AMM!). As for the Orthodox on marriage and divorce, that is only accepted in special circumstances. Like the circumstances that allow Catholics in North America to receive hundreds of "annulments." But you are right, the Catholic Church doesn't allow divorce . . . $;\)$ (Wouldn't want to upset Alexis yet again). Being EC (there are lots of Churches and rites to choose from) is truly having the best of all worlds for those who look Eastwards. Or as the Western Rite Orthodox priest said, "Those who like the icons with the big eyes." Alex
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#278263 - 02/12/08 03:01 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: peso73]
MrsMW MrsMW Member Registered: 01/26/07 Posts: 194 Loc: Southern California	I was raised in the reformed tradtion. I looked at both the RC and the EO. I finally choose the Catholic Church because I couldn't get the picture of St Peter being given the keys out of my head. I also had read Isaiah 22:20-25. I had seen quotes both ways from the Fathers but like Peso I had big questions about the divorce question. The thing that finally sent me over was birth control.( I hope I don't get someone blasting me for saying this) If you want to speak with a good EC priest I would talk with Fr Thomas Loya at Annunciation church in Chicago. Also I would talk with one of the priests at Holy Resurrection Monastery in Newberry Springs. It is a tough place to be in no matter which side you chose. God bless you and I'll pray for you.
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#278265 - 02/12/08 03:02 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: AMM]
A Simple Sinner A Simple Sinner Member Registered: 04/18/07 Posts: 953 Loc: Ohio	Originally Posted By: AMM Shouldn't the Copts and Armenians be on the menu of "true churches"? I see no reason not to consider them. ... People in Poland and Greece are not racking their brains with questions of true churches and conversion. They are what they are. AMM brings up two good points here... Oriental Orthodox would demand to know "What 'bout us?" as would the Church of the East. A breakaway faction of the Church of the East (known as the "Ancient Church of the East") would in turn point to all non-Ancient Church of the East members as being in grave error and that their church alone is the true church. Attempting to construct a "process of elimination" or hedging your bets based on what a different church says of the one you choose can just as easily lead to more choices, problems and questions than it answers or eliminates! One fella I know of went from Anglican to RC to EC to EO (OCA) to Greek Old Calendarist... (I think he has stayed put with the Greek Old Calendarists)
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#278274 - 02/12/08 03:21 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: A Simple Sinner]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Member Registered: 08/18/06 Posts: 1916 Loc: Georgia U.S.	I would caution anyone against making a rush decision. I feel that I did that 12 years ago while not fully considering all of the evidence and arguments available and later had to come to a point where I had to convert again. Not that I regret being Eastern Catholic for 12 years, I certainly don't. But I have learned not to give too much to my feelings at the moment and that there are always two sides to a story. At this point if you are still unsure which direction you should go, then don't make a decision. It is okay to stay in limbo for awhile because there are real practical differences in living as a Catholic Christian or as an Orthodox Christian. Ultimately though, you will find that you can never have 100% certitude so you will eventually have to make the decision that you think is best. Know too that it is possible to make a decision and then later to come to a new understanding that requires you to make another decision. This is what happened to me. God bless you and follow your conscience. Just make sure that you are fully informed before jumping into anything. Joe
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#278279 - 02/12/08 03:37 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: A Simple Sinner]
Orthodox Catholic Orthodox Catholic Member Registered: 11/05/01 Posts: 22048 Loc: Canada	Dear Simple, Good point yourself! I know Anglicans who have preferred the Western Rite Orthodox tradition (although RC's who become Orthodox, in my limited experience, prefer the Eastern tradition). In the Ukrainian community where you have two identical cultural groups in the UGCC and UOCC, the differences between us must be religious only (which is why when there is talk about removing the Filioque everywhere, some of our UGCC priests get nervous). If the ONLY outward difference would be the commemoration of the Pope . . . let's say a number of our priests don't want to go there! Alex
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#278284 - 02/12/08 03:40 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: Orthodox Catholic]
Orthodox Catholic Orthodox Catholic Member Registered: 11/05/01 Posts: 22048 Loc: Canada	Dear Joe, Excellent post! As AMM would concur, conversion should never be a "Copt out." Back to work for me. (Where is the Administrator? Is he off skulking in a corner because he's fasting? He should be on the true Calendar! $\:\)$ ) Alex
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#278285 - 02/12/08 03:45 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: Pilgrim Dave]
ajk ajk Deacon Member Registered: 05/22/07 Posts: 369 Loc: MD	Originally Posted By: Pilgrim Dave If EO are correct: EO 100% vs. RC 10%. If RC are correct: RC 100% vs. EO 90%. - Therefore, I should place my chips ... If God is a bookie, you're on to something. You mentioned the sacraments/mysteries; ask yourself about the theology of those mysteries. Both the Catholic and Orthodox take them very seriously. You have been water baptized in the Trinity? Are you then a Christian or not? How does the Catholic theology of baptism and the application of that theology in practice compare to the various theologies and practices of the Orthodox churches? Who has it right? Make a sound spiritual investment: keep looking, inquiring, discerning, praying. Pray in the Spirit, through the Son. God the Father, our Father, will surely answer and reward. Dn. Anthony
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#278289 - 02/12/08 03:51 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: ajk]
Orthodox Catholic Orthodox Catholic Member Registered: 11/05/01 Posts: 22048 Loc: Canada	Dear Father Deacon, Definitely I think that process of discernment by Pilgrim Dave is a Latin approach! He should therefore be "Orthodox in communion with Rome" and have all his bets covered! $\:\)$ Alex
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#278300 - 02/12/08 04:08 PM Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy? [Re: AMM]
Prester John Prester John Member Registered: 01/10/08 Posts: 112 Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA	Originally Posted By: AMM Shouldn't the Copts and Armenians be on the menu of "true churches"? I see no reason not to consider them. One thing Protestant seekers may not exactly like, but will certainly run in to, is that for most (if not nearly all) people - Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc. - the church is as much a cultural association as it is anything else. People in Poland and Greece are not racking their brains with questions of true churches and conversion. They are what they are. Well said!
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