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#278310 - 02/12/08 05:03 PM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
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AMM
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 2504
Loc: PA
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As AMM would concur, conversion should never be a "Copt out."
Nope. Fact is I'm not the poster child for conversion (Copts or no Copts) because I made my decision long before understanding any of the theological issues involved. Coming from a non religious background I happened to run in to Roman Catholicism, Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy all pretty much at the same time while at a Catholic college. What I saw and experienced ultimately led me to choose Orthodoxy. It was not intellectual arguments, theological constructs or anything else. I felt comfortable in the parishes communities I visited in Orthodoxy and felt the liturgy and atmosphere was just more to my liking there. I took communion in every Catholic church I visited (I've never mentioned that here) because I thought it was okay and nobody told me otherwise. At the first Orthodox parish I visited I was told I could have antidoron but not communion, otherwise I would not have known.
Over time as I've actually become more familiar with the issues I would say my theological outlook has come inline with Orthodoxy, that was long afterwards though. Both sides certainly have compelling arguments to make, which I suppose is why the schism still exists. Essentially I think I believe that true churches exist where there are true sacraments, at least I can't see how that isn't the case. So while I don't believe in an "invisible" church, I do believe the church exists in a larger sense across the divisions of hierarchs that are willing to concelebrate with each other. Perhaps that is heretical or something, I'm not really sure. I don't really lose sleep over it. I figure God will take care of those who serve him. The Oriental Orthodox for instance seem completely Orthodox to me and I don't see why we aren't together aside from historical circumstances.
Like I said, I think seekers and converts should be attuned to the cultural component and how may people simply won't share their concerns and assumptions. Most Catholics I know for instance rarely or never go to mass, have a sort of "all religions are the same" attitude, don't trust or like their hierarchy and openly discount key components of the teachings of their own church; yet consider themselves fully Catholic. Things like that of course happen in all churches. Perhaps it is the difficulty to deal with that will create people like Simple Sinner's friend who continually move to truer and truer churches with more rigorous standards.
My own laundry list of things I would look for if choosing a church today would be:
Julian calendar
Primarily English speaking, open to all
Traditional eastern liturgy
Good parish to raise a family
Support for married priesthood and diaconate
Support for minor orders
Looking to evangelize outside existing community
Hierarchy I can follow
Any of those missing and I would start knocking points of the "trueness" indicator.
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#278321 - 02/12/08 07:20 PM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
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Memo Rodriguez
Member
Registered: 11/12/01
Posts: 920
Loc: Thousand Oaks, CA
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When 90% of you make it to Heaven, it would be interesting to see which parts make the cut.
Just kidding!
May God bless you and guide you in your spiritual journey.
Shalom,
Memo
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#278332 - 02/12/08 09:44 PM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: AMM]
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peso73
Junior Member
Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 29
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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No pressure though Dave, it's just Catholicism or you know what.
HAHAHA! no kidding, huh!?
I am heading towards the E.C., but as been advised, taking it slow, but I do also believe one will probably be ok if they believe in their heart they are doing the right thing, and if they ARE ok, it'll be through Christ that they'll end up in heaven, and that if they picked the correct church...all the better for them, but I think the bible says something along the lines of, "he that does the will of the Father...etc." at some point, and so I feel God will not damn us for picking E.O. if Catholic was right, or whatnot.....
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#278346 - 02/13/08 06:06 AM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
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MarkosC
Member
Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 284
Loc: Patriarchate of Antioch
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Dave,
This may sound a bit harsh for a not-gravely-serious-and-a-bit-tongue-in-cheek post. But I don't intend it to be harsh and I apologize beforehand.
I think you're approaching this wrong. Christianity is not a matter of belonging to the right club, or even necessarily assenting to every correct doctrine (though the latter is important).
Ultimately, Christianity experiential - the sanctification of the individual by participating in the Church, the body of Christ, along with its. Salvation is not individual, nor is it a matter of believing the right things or following the right moral code (though again the latter two have their place).
In that light, I'd recommend you visiting and staying for several sundays at your local parishes. I'd also recommend reading, as a starter, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Way" as well as the "Cathechism of the Catholic Church". I would not make the decision until you have digested BOTH books and found good parishes in your area.
Best,
Markos
Speaking only for himself and his own opinions, who does not claim to be the last word
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#278356 - 02/13/08 09:28 AM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: peso73]
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JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Member
Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1916
Loc: Georgia U.S.
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No pressure though Dave, it's just Catholicism or you know what. HAHAHA! no kidding, huh!? I am heading towards the E.C., but as been advised, taking it slow, but I do also believe one will probably be ok if they believe in their heart they are doing the right thing, and if they ARE ok, it'll be through Christ that they'll end up in heaven, and that if they picked the correct church...all the better for them, but I think the bible says something along the lines of, "he that does the will of the Father...etc." at some point, and so I feel God will not damn us for picking E.O. if Catholic was right, or whatnot.....
Just keep in mind that according to Roman Catholic teaching, if you become Orthodox and you are not "invincibly ignorant" of the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church, then you are damned. I believe that this is what Fr. Stephanos was also saying. So if Roman Catholicism is true, then you better make sure that you are invincibly ignorant if you choose not to join her. How one assesses whether he is invincibly ignorant is unknown to me. But it seems clear that both Rome and the Orthodox take conversion seriously and do not look at it as placing a bet.
Joe
Joe
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#278363 - 02/13/08 10:15 AM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
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peso73
Junior Member
Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 29
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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No pressure though Dave, it's just Catholicism or you know what. HAHAHA! no kidding, huh!? I am heading towards the E.C., but as been advised, taking it slow, but I do also believe one will probably be ok if they believe in their heart they are doing the right thing, and if they ARE ok, it'll be through Christ that they'll end up in heaven, and that if they picked the correct church...all the better for them, but I think the bible says something along the lines of, "he that does the will of the Father...etc." at some point, and so I feel God will not damn us for picking E.O. if Catholic was right, or whatnot..... Just keep in mind that according to Roman Catholic teaching, if you become Orthodox and you are not "invincibly ignorant" of the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church, then you are damned. I believe that this is what Fr. Stephanos was also saying. So if Roman Catholicism is true, then you better make sure that you are invincibly ignorant if you choose not to join her. How one assesses whether he is invincibly ignorant is unknown to me. But it seems clear that both Rome and the Orthodox take conversion seriously and do not look at it as placing a bet. Joe Joe
True, all churches tend to take conversion seriously as they should, but even if the RCC is right we are allowed to be as EC or OC as we want as long as we are C we are OK
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#278367 - 02/13/08 10:42 AM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: peso73]
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JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Member
Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1916
Loc: Georgia U.S.
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No pressure though Dave, it's just Catholicism or you know what. HAHAHA! no kidding, huh!? I am heading towards the E.C., but as been advised, taking it slow, but I do also believe one will probably be ok if they believe in their heart they are doing the right thing, and if they ARE ok, it'll be through Christ that they'll end up in heaven, and that if they picked the correct church...all the better for them, but I think the bible says something along the lines of, "he that does the will of the Father...etc." at some point, and so I feel God will not damn us for picking E.O. if Catholic was right, or whatnot..... Just keep in mind that according to Roman Catholic teaching, if you become Orthodox and you are not "invincibly ignorant" of the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church, then you are damned. I believe that this is what Fr. Stephanos was also saying. So if Roman Catholicism is true, then you better make sure that you are invincibly ignorant if you choose not to join her. How one assesses whether he is invincibly ignorant is unknown to me. But it seems clear that both Rome and the Orthodox take conversion seriously and do not look at it as placing a bet. Joe Joe True, all churches tend to take conversion seriously as they should, but even if the RCC is right we are allowed to be as EC or OC as we want as long as we are C we are OK
I'm not so sure that this is what the Catholic Church (i.e. Church in union with Rome) believes. I believe that Catholic teaching is that we must enter communion with Rome if we know that it is the true Church. To not enter into union with Rome would lead to one's damnation unless one is invincibly ignorant. It is my understanding that this is official Roman Catholic teaching and something that you should consider.
Joe
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#278379 - 02/13/08 12:11 PM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: ajk]
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AMM
Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 2504
Loc: PA
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What is the reference or source for that particular wording of Catholic teaching?
Lumen Gentium 14
This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_counc...gentium_en.html
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#278380 - 02/13/08 12:33 PM
Re: My version of Pascal’s Wager: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
[Re: AMM]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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Yes, thanks, this is indeed clearer and nuanced as I expected.
Any comments on the other points/questions?
Dn. Anthony
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