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#280131 - 02/25/08 05:40 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: A Simple Sinner]
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Etnick
Member
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 787
Loc: Where we say men and mankind
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OCA parishes:
All.
I'd have to muster up a list of those that don't have Vespers, but I don't know of any. How sad that the Greek Catholic churches refuse to follow their tradition. Don't be too sad for us. Much as it would be great to have vespers at every parish, for a lot of parishes with far-flung parishoners getting to the parish on a Saturday night would constitute a difficulty. At the parish where I have attended them, as often as not it has been two or three of us and the priest. How has this become a hallmark of authenticity in the way it has on here? Laudible as it may be for all of us to resume it, if it is impracticle on a number of levels, why is this continually brought against us as "Exhibit F" in the ongoing trial to somehow demonstrate we are ersatz easterners?I love the BCC and lately I feel on here that some are taking every opportunity to insult the Byzantine Catholics.
My parish has 6 to 8 people show up every week. I'm one of them. Father has the farthest drive of anyone, still it is held every week. There is simply no excuse for the BCC to not do the same.
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#280133 - 02/25/08 05:50 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: Etnick]
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A Simple Sinner
Member
Registered: 04/18/07
Posts: 954
Loc: Ohio
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I am glad you feel your practice superior. I am glad the 6 to 8 of you that attend are able to do so. I am glad that your priest can make that sacrifice.
Sorry if we don't make excuses - acceptable to you or otherwise.
Why is this continually brought against us as "Exhibit F" in the ongoing trial to somehow demonstrate we are ersatz easterners?
(Exhibits A, B, C, D, & E all being used for the other decried situations...)
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#280136 - 02/25/08 06:17 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: A Simple Sinner]
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A Simple Sinner
Member
Registered: 04/18/07
Posts: 954
Loc: Ohio
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And Monomakh, where did you get that list of parishes? Saint Barbaras in Dayton has been closed for years and there is no Saint Josephs Byzantine in Toledo.
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#280137 - 02/25/08 06:21 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: Etnick]
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A Simple Sinner
Member
Registered: 04/18/07
Posts: 954
Loc: Ohio
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I'm sure that many OCA and other Orthodox people are far flung and whatnot, but the point is the services are always held. It's not up for debate. It's the Byzantine tradition. If you choose to call Byzantine Catholics as "Ersatz", maybe they are. Sort of a cafeteria mentality. We'll take this and this, but not this or this.
Rome keeps telling the EC's to be authentic. Why aren't they?
We aren't because you say we aren't? By Etnick's standards we fall short?
I don't choose it, these insults and monikers - I accept that is how those with a view to look down on us - often smugly - will put it. And boy do they.
I am happy for you who are located "Where we say men and mankind" that you have found the true fullness of Byzantine praxis by your standards. I wish you well and hope that you flourish and grow in holiness.
I really just cannot take a lot more of ByzCath during our Great Lent though. Some time off may be needed. I love the BCC and on here the way some are taking every opportunity to insult the Byzantine Catholics is just sad. Though it seems to be well accepted and allowable.
It is constant snyde mark and barb and criticism, one right after another, by folks inside and out... I just don't get what the attraction is to focus this VERY negative attention on our small church is all about.
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#280141 - 02/25/08 06:39 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: Etnick]
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Fr. Deacon Lance
Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3004
Loc: Washington, PA
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The Eparchy of Parma's current website lists 35 parishes. 3 have Vespers, 2 have Vesperal Liturgies, 3 of the preceding also have Matins.
St. John Cathedral, Parma, OH: Vesperal Liturgy and Matins
St. Mary, Cleveland, OH: Vesperal Liturgy
St. John, Columbus, OH: Vespers
St. Nicholas, Lorain, OH: Vespers and Matins
St. Emilian, Brunswick, OH: Vespers and Matins
The Eparchy of Van Nuys website lists 19 parishes. 3 have Vespers, 1 has Vesperal Liturgy.
St. Stephen Pro-cathedral, Phoenix, AZ: Vesperal Liturgy
St. Thomas, Gilbert, AZ: Vespers
Holy Angels, San Diego, CA: Vespers
Our Lady of Pepetual Help, Albuquerque, NM: Vespers and Matins
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#280142 - 02/25/08 06:50 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: Etnick]
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Two Lungs
Member
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1364
Loc: Takoma Park, MD
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Etnick, for an Orthodox Christian, I think you pay too much attention to Rome! 
Rome keeps telling the EC's to be authentic. Why aren't they?
What ever gave you the idea that EC's are not authentic?
I think the EC's are quite authentic. 
Just like the RC's are authentic.
Come to think of it,
the Orthodox and the Protestants are authentic also,
and in much the same way. 
Sometimes we do what Rome does, even when not told to do so.
Sometimes, we stick to our ways, even if told otherwise.
Sometimes, we just ignore Rome. (just like RC's) 
We're just like the Orthodox !
We ignore Rome as well as you do !
Maybe better !
PS: To paraphrase "The Onion Dome":
"... to ignore Rome,
now, THAT is the Tradition."
Edited by Two Lungs (02/25/08 06:56 PM)
Edit Reason: added postscript
_________________________
John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck
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#280143 - 02/25/08 06:53 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: A Simple Sinner]
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Etnick
Member
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 787
Loc: Where we say men and mankind
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Alright, here we go:
Byzantine ritual and how it is practiced is not held up to "my" standards. I only know that my parish celebrates the full cycle of services. I really don't care what the Byzantine Catholic Churches do or don't do. I'm not a member of it anymore. However, until a short time ago, I was, and after being in the Orthodox church, I somehow feel like I was cheated out of the full praxis of the East, even though I WAS in an Eastern church from baptism.
A friend of mine suggested to their BC priest that they do the Great Canon for the fast. His response was "but that's Orthodox"!  . How is this being faithful to Eastern tradition? Unless it's liturgy, we're not doing it.
I still don't see why the Eastern Catholic churches are afraid to be fully Eastern.
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#280145 - 02/25/08 07:00 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: Two Lungs]
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Etnick
Member
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 787
Loc: Where we say men and mankind
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Etnick, for an Orthodox Christian, I think you pay too much attention to Rome!
Rome keeps telling the EC's to be authentic. Why aren't they?
What ever gave you the idea that EC's are not authentic? I think the EC's are quite authentic. Well it's kind of like the wreck on the highway, you just gotta look at it. Just like the RC's are authentic. Come to think of it, the Orthodox and the Protestants are authentic also, and in much the same way. Sometimes we do what Rome does, even when not told to do so. Sometimes, we stick to our ways, even if told otherwise. Sometimes, we just ignore Rome. (just like RC's) We're just like the Orthodox !
We ignore Rome as well as you do !
Maybe better ! PS: To paraphrase "The Onion Dome": "... to ignore Rome,
now, THAT is the Tradition."
Well, it's kind of like the wreck on the highway, you just gotta look at it!
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#280154 - 02/25/08 07:26 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Monomakh
Member
Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 410
Loc: just south of nowhere
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The Eparchy of Parma's current website lists 35 parishes. 3 have Vespers, 2 have Vesperal Liturgies, 3 of the preceding also have Matins.
St. John Cathedral, Parma, OH: Vesperal Liturgy and Matins
St. Mary, Cleveland, OH: Vesperal Liturgy
St. John, Columbus, OH: Vespers
St. Nicholas, Lorain, OH: Vespers and Matins
St. Emilian, Brunswick, OH: Vespers and Matins
The Eparchy of Van Nuys website lists 19 parishes. 3 have Vespers, 1 has Vesperal Liturgy.
St. Stephen Pro-cathedral, Phoenix, AZ: Vesperal Liturgy
St. Thomas, Gilbert, AZ: Vespers
Holy Angels, San Diego, CA: Vespers
Our Lady of Pepetual Help, Albuquerque, NM: Vespers and Matins
I hope that a spitting contest over this won't ensue, but Vespergy isn't what I would count in this list.
And if you run the numbers that Deacon Lance found and put them with Passaic and Pittsburgh, and the UGCC and Melkites, I don't think that my estimated 90% would be that far off. The good news is that 20 years ago the Vespers numbers were even less, so while a lot, and I mean a lot, must be done, it actually is better.
Monomakh
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#280160 - 02/25/08 08:12 PM
Re: Munhall Cathedral Rumor...
[Re: AMM]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Deacon Robert Behrens
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 865
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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Actually, I am told that the text of canons were prepared by canonists of Catholic Eastern Churches, and then forwarded to the Pope for his blessing and promulgation. In other words, they were essentially the work of "easterners". Fr. Deacon, wasn't the mandate to return to Eastern traditions though? Why would the canonists propose that and why would it be approved?
Iam asking the same question!!!
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