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#281346 - 03/04/08 01:30 PM
Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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I'm posting this in the RDL forum because it pertains to the changes in the translation of the Creed.
Also, I'm asking the question "Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?" within the domain of theological and dogmatic language, and the context of a part of a post in another thread:
Anyway, I think what you are asking me about the translation. I have already written that the translation "for us human beings ... became a human being" would be an acceptable translation -- both linguistically and theologically. linguistically: Are you OK with Jesus as the Son of Human Being? Or God made Human Being in His image? theologically: I've been wondering about this one. What is the best reference specifically that incorporates the sense both of human (i.e. nature, physis) and being (ousia?) for Jesus as a "human being"?
Also, is "became a human being" what is conveyed by "became Man" (gender neutral) as opposed to "became a Man"?
Asked another way: We say in the Creed that Jesus is ομοούσιον τώ Πατρί, homoousion tō Father; is it also correct to say Jesus is homoousion tō Adam or homoousion tō Man?
Dn. Anthony
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#281380 - 03/04/08 05:59 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Fr David Straut]
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PrJ
Member
Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 490
Loc: Midwest
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As with Fr Serge, I appreciate the spirit of Fr. David's posts. And in this instance, I wholeheartedly agree with him. Putting the English adjective "a" in front of man/human does imply the existence of a second person ... which is heresy.
Thanks, Fr. David, for another excellent post.
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#281387 - 03/04/08 08:00 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Fr David Straut]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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Thank you for this reply. Some further considerations and comments (kind of thinking "out loud", incomplete thoughts, etc.):
The Son is one in essence with the Father from all eternity.
Yes, as in the creed: " Jesus is ομοούσιον τώ Πατρί, homoousion tō Father."
He became one in essence with humanity at the Incarnation.
So, Jesus is homoousion tō Adam or homoousion tō Man?
I do not think it is theologically accurate to say that he became a man or human being.
Here I would offer a distinction between translating or formulating the Creed and just making a general statement. So, I'm thinking, saying Jesus became a man is ok (though it could be misinterpreted) but that it is not an accurate statement of what the creed is saying.
The Son was a pre-existent hypostasis/person who fully assumed a human nature (body, soul, operation, and will) but not a human hypostasis. Otherwise there would be two hypostases/persons in Christ, as Nestorius falsely taught.
Yes. I found it interesting that I gravitated to the Chalcedonian vocabulary also when considering my post. The formulation of the Creed was, of course, prior to Chalcedon.
So the Symbol of Faith (i.e. the Creed) should be translated "and became man" (or for those who reject traditional English usage, "and became human").
I'm ok with "and became man" because for me man denotes personhood, specifically one person, Adam, who is also "representative" of all. The understanding is that the divine person, the Son, assumed a human nature. My concern with "and became human" is that I see it as a comment on nature alone, not person, and so it is not as a statement as full as what the creed is actually saying.
But, apart from the creed, is saying "The Son (Jesus) became human" equivalent to saying "The Son (Jesus) assumed a human nature"?
It should not be translated "and became a man" (or "and became a human being").
Certainly not in the creed. As I said before, I'm suggesting that the statement "Jesus became a man" could be ok. And the very question of the thread is "Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?"
The feminist/inclusive language should not be an issue here. That's another subject.
Yes. This is in fact why I started the topic as a new thread.
Also, a general disclaimer here: though I may ask a lot of questions in response to a post (as above) they are asked in general of the forum, and should not be construed as argumentative or trying to put the poster on the spot.
Dn. Anthony
Edited by ajk (03/04/08 08:16 PM)
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#281395 - 03/04/08 08:38 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: ajk]
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Fr David Straut
Member
Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 232
Loc: New Jersey, United States
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Thank you for this reply. Some further considerations and comments (kind of thinking "out loud", incomplete thoughts, etc.): He became one in essence with humanity at the Incarnation. So, Jesus is homoousion tō Adam or homoousion tō Man? So the Symbol of Faith (i.e. the Creed) should be translated "and became man" (or for those who reject traditional English usage, "and became human"). I'm ok with "and became man" because for me man denotes personhood, specifically one person, Adam, who is also "representative" of all. The understanding is that the divine person, the Son, assumed a human nature. My concern with "and became human" is that I see it as a comment on nature alone, not person, and so it is not as a statement as full as what the creed is actually saying. Dn. Anthony
Certainly the Incarnate Son of God became one in essence with Adam, with Eve, with the Prophet Moses, with His Immaculate Ever-Virgin Mother, with Fr Deacon Anthony, and with me. In short with all men, with each human being, with all that have a human hypostasis/person.
'Adam' means 'man,' does it not? When we say 'Adam,' we can mean the First-Created man, or all his descendants collectively. Just as 'man' in traditional Engish can mean an individual human being or the species of human beings, so to speak.
Fr David
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#281396 - 03/04/08 08:43 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: ajk]
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Fr. Deacon Lance
Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3004
Loc: Washington, PA
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I'm ok with "and became man" because for me man denotes personhood, specifically one person, Adam, who is also "representative" of all. The understanding is that the divine person, the Son, assumed a human nature. My concern with "and became human" is that I see it as a comment on nature alone, not person, and so it is not as a statement as full as what the creed is actually saying.
But, apart from the creed, is saying "The Son (Jesus) became human" equivalent to saying "The Son (Jesus) assumed a human nature"?
Fr. Deacon Anthony,
Is that not the point? Christ assumed a human nature (physis) not a human personhood (hypostasis).
I understand the theological comparison between Adam and Christ (new Adam) but I don't think it can be assumed the Fathers had this particular facet in mind when writing the Creed.
Fr. Deacon Lance
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#281481 - 03/05/08 12:12 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Father David
Member
Registered: 07/14/02
Posts: 192
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I will not add a translation observation. The translation is fine as it is, and the dogmatic truth is indeed that Jesus, Son and Word of God is one person, the divine second person of the Holy Trinity. But as was once said "speaking about God can be dangerous." Jesus remains truly one hypostais, but incarnate in the complete human nature. Therefore, all those antecedents to human personhood - identity (Jewish male); free will, "personality," apply to Jesus as well as to a human person. He is not less of a "person," as acting within human history and society, than any "human person." He can, therefore, serve as the model for our own "human personhood." Sometimes, I get the feeling that people are speaking of Jesus as the divine being rattling around in a human body and soul, much in the Appollinarian sense. In that senses, he would not, therefore, not a model for us, e.g Vladimir Lossky rejected the "imitation of Christ" spiritual model. (Though I accept V. Lossky's insights about Byzantine spirituality. Irenee Hausherr wrote an excellent article about the imitation of Christ, "L'imitation de Jesus-Christ dans la spiritualite byzantine.") Rather, all that is assumed is saved, and, hence, also, our "human personalities," in the sense of all of those components of human nature that give us a "personality."
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#281483 - 03/05/08 12:18 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Father David]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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I will not add a translation observation. The translation is fine as it is, ...
What translation is that?
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#281486 - 03/05/08 12:24 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: ajk]
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Father David
Member
Registered: 07/14/02
Posts: 192
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The Son of God became "man," and not "a man."
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#281491 - 03/05/08 12:59 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Father David]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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The Son of God became "man," and not "a man."
If I may summarize:
There is no problem with the creed having "became man"; the creed does not say "became a man."
Also, even outside the text of the creed, "became a man" is held to be suspect or wrong. Here, is the problem the "a" or "became," e.g. what about the statement The Son of God was a man?
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#281565 - 03/05/08 09:38 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Maura]
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lm
Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 778
Loc: usa
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Always good to read an orthodox scholar on the issue to refute the sophistry:
SILK PURSES AND SOW'S EARS
"INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE" COMES TO MASS [Divine Liturgy]
by Paul V. Mankowski, S.J.
Paul V. Mankowski, S.J., teaches Hebrew at the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome. His essays have appeared frequently in First Things and elsewhere, and he is a contributor to The Politics of Prayer: Feminist Language and the Worship of God [Ignatius Press, San Francisco, ed. H.
Hitchcock].
http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/SILKPURS.TXT
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#281807 - 03/07/08 12:38 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Fr David Straut]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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Thank you for this reply. Some further considerations and comments (kind of thinking "out loud", incomplete thoughts, etc.): He became one in essence with humanity at the Incarnation. So, Jesus is homoousion tō Adam or homoousion tō Man? So the Symbol of Faith (i.e. the Creed) should be translated "and became man" (or for those who reject traditional English usage, "and became human"). I'm ok with "and became man" because for me man denotes personhood, specifically one person, Adam, who is also "representative" of all. The understanding is that the divine person, the Son, assumed a human nature. My concern with "and became human" is that I see it as a comment on nature alone, not person, and so it is not as a statement as full as what the creed is actually saying. Dn. Anthony Certainly the Incarnate Son of God became one in essence with Adam, with Eve, with the Prophet Moses, with His Immaculate Ever-Virgin Mother, with Fr Deacon Anthony, and with me. In short with all men, with each human being, with all that have a human hypostasis/person. 'Adam' means 'man,' does it not? When we say 'Adam,' we can mean the First-Created man, or all his descendants collectively. Just as 'man' in traditional Engish can mean an individual human being or the species of human beings, so to speak. Fr David
As indicated in the initial post, I'm hoping to find an authoritative reference giving the proposed formulations. The creed has the language homoousion tō Patri. Was the parallel, homoousion tō anthrōpō, "one in essence" with Man, meaning "one in essence with Adam, with Eve ..." also actually used? Why then the need for the nature (physis) distinctions of Chalcedon if one can just directly say, Jesus is homoousion tō anthrōpō, avoiding the divisions that resulted from the nature/person vocabulary of Chalcedon?
Dn. Anthony
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#281810 - 03/07/08 12:55 PM
Re: Did the Son (Jesus) become a human being?
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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ajk
Deacon
Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
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Is that not the point? Christ assumed a human nature (physis) not a human personhood (hypostasis).
Fr. Deacon Lance, thank you for the post. Yes, this is so in the language of Chalcedon. My concern is that while saying "The Son (Jesus) assumed a human nature" is understood as explicitly limited to a nature, "The Son (Jesus) became human" is not sufficiently explicit and could be taken as referring to the person.
I understand the theological comparison between Adam and Christ (new Adam) but I don't think it can be assumed the Fathers had this particular facet in mind when writing the Creed.
I don't know but, since it is biblical, why not?
Dn. Anthony
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Moderator: Father Anthony
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