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#282194 - 03/10/08 12:52 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: true faith]
PrJ Offline
Member


Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 490
Loc: Midwest
 Quote:
Examples included eliminating ANY reference to mankind, changes from sons to children…


You did not have a dream about the RDL then. As I have pointed out MANY times, the RDL does contain references to "men" and "man" as inclusive nouns.

I really find this kind of exaggeration to be distasteful. Disagree if you want to -- but refrain from exagerrating the faults. I have much more respect for arguments that acknowledge the good while criticizing the bad. But arguments that are exclusively negative and ones that make exaggerated claims are distasteful and untruthful.
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#282196 - 03/10/08 12:55 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: Ung-Certez]
AMM Offline
Member


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 2504
Loc: PA
 Originally Posted By: Ung-Certez
I believe that the ACROD uses Birth-Giver rather than Theotokos in their books.

Ung


We use both depending on the text.
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#282203 - 03/10/08 01:29 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: AMM]
Serge Keleher Offline
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Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 2937
Loc: Dublin
" Birth-Giver of God" was coined by Isabel Hapgood, if memory serves me correctly. Alas, it does not accurately translate "Theotokos" either. But Hapgood has been strongly influential for more than a century.

"Bohoroditse" is simply a Church-Slavonic calque of "Theotokos".

Fr. Serge
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#282204 - 03/10/08 01:33 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: PrJ]
Recluse Offline
Member


Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 613
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: PrJ
I find this kind of triumphalistic post very disturbing to me. All Churches struggle. The OCA right now is struggling tremendously with charges of corruption, etc. at the higest levels. NO wonder my young students are turned off by Christianity and by Christians.

Can we PLEASE not rejoice at the struggles of our fellow brothers and sisters? PLEASE -- I appeal to you by all that is good and holy in the Gospel to refrain from this kind of vicious attacks.

Oh please. Everyone here knows I have great respect for the Latin/Eastern Catholic Church. True, I am very happy in the Holy Orthodox Church, but it is not meant to disparage any other Church. The OP was tongue and cheek. My contribution was in that vein. I know that you and I agree on very little when it comes to the RDL, but there is no need to bash my post and then start listing problems that the OCA are experiencing---now THAT is insulting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is a viscious attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you want to begin a thread that criticizes and bashes the OCA, then you have free-will. This forum deals specificly with the RDL----AND MANY HERE HAVE BEEN TERRIBLY INJURED BY IT.

Edited by Recluse (03/10/08 01:34 PM)
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#282207 - 03/10/08 01:56 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: Recluse]
PrJ Offline
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Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 490
Loc: Midwest
Forgive me, as I can see that you were offended by my post. The problems the OCA is having are well-known; yet there has been no post by any Greek Catholic rejoicing in the fact that their communion has been untouched by these problems. That is a significant fact.

I believe your post was terribly uncharitable. I was offended by it.

An additional point behind my raising this issue is to demonstrate that some of the claims made by supporters of the RDL about the nature of the personal attacks against them and the RDL are not unfounded.

There is a personal edge, an angry tone, to some of the posts that are objectionable. I am hopeful that they will completely stop.

Edited by PrJ (03/10/08 01:56 PM)
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#282208 - 03/10/08 01:58 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: Serge Keleher]
ajk Offline
Deacon
Member


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
 Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
" Birth-Giver of God" was coined by Isabel Hapgood, if memory serves me correctly. Alas, it does not accurately translate "Theotokos" either. But Hapgood has been strongly influential for more than a century.

"Bohoroditse" is simply a Church-Slavonic calque of "Theotokos".

Fr. Serge


Agreed. But we have Bohoroditse. My question is, what does it convey?

Theo --- tokos
God ---- child-bearer (as explained in a previous post)

Boho----roditse
God ---- ?????

What then for the ????

Dn. Anthony
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#282209 - 03/10/08 01:59 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: PrJ]
Recluse Offline
Member


Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 613
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: PrJ
I believe your post was terribly uncharitable. I was offended by it.

I converted to Holy Orthodoxy for a myriad of reasons—mostly doctrinal. However, the travesty of the RDL was the straw that broke the camel’s back. It was the springboard for my conversion. Week after week I sat in the pew with my wife and child at the Ruthenian Catholic Church in a cloud of disbelief. I could no longer sing. I could not bring myself to recite the neutralized language. I could not even say the Creed any longer!!! It was impossible for me to stay in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

So you see Fr John, the RDL was a true and living nightmare for me. I am at peace once again in the Holy Orthodox Church. There is no triumphalism. There is no insult to you. You are at peace where you are—and I am at peace where I am.

The anger and defensiveness of your posts are becoming tedious for me. You are approaching Holy Week and I have just begun Great Lent, so I am going to leave this forum for a while. My conversations with you are not conducive to retaining my peace. I will pray for you and your family.


May the remainder of your Lent be blessed.


The most wretched of all sinners,
Recluse
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#282221 - 03/10/08 02:48 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: Recluse]
Zeeker Offline
Member


Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Amen! Although I too have had occasion to clash with individuals that have voiced strong opinions against the RDL, I wish to join Recluse in wishing all Eastern Christians a Blessed Holy Week or beginning of their Lenten Journey (whichever event they are celebrating). I think we can all take a moment to pause and reflect upon those ideas which bring anger into our hearts, and how we may cleanse those feelings in order to more fully take part in our worship of Christ's sacrifice and resurrection for our salvation.
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#282225 - 03/10/08 02:59 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: ajk]
A student Offline
Member


Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Virginia
Hello Deacon Tony,

I believe the translation for Boho-rodice that you are looking for is God-birther.

A student
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#282259 - 03/10/08 05:41 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: A student]
ajk Offline
Deacon
Member


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
Thank you "student"; I agree: A+.
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#282279 - 03/10/08 08:30 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: ajk]
Serge Keleher Offline
Member


Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 2937
Loc: Dublin
If you wish to get angry at the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, as well as Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI on the issue, I certainly can't stop you from disagreeing with me. In January of this year Pope Benedict said in the general audience in the Paul VI Hall:

"Theotokos" is the title officially attributed to Mary in the fifth century, exactly by the Council of Ephesus in 431, but affirmed in the devotion of the Christian people already since the third century.

The earliest known usage is the prayer "Under thy patronage" - Sub tuum praesidium" or in Slavonic "Pod Tvoiu Milost'" (I have the Greek text but it's not handy to the computer). It may go back to the second century.

Why does this word disturb people?

Fr. Serge
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#282280 - 03/10/08 08:34 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: Serge Keleher]
byzanTN Offline
Member


Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 4420
Loc: Knoxville, TN
 Quote:
Why does this word disturb people?

Fr. Serge


Good question. I don't get it either.
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#282282 - 03/10/08 08:41 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: byzanTN]
PrJ Offline
Member


Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 490
Loc: Midwest
I love the word -- but I just wish we could all say it the same way. People around here have a tendency to say "Theee-a-tokus".
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#282287 - 03/10/08 09:13 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: Serge Keleher]
ajk Offline
Deacon
Member


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
 Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
If you wish to get angry at the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon,...


Who are the you, Nestorius and Dioscorus?
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#282291 - 03/10/08 09:25 PM Re: Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! [Re: Serge Keleher]
ajk Offline
Deacon
Member


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: MD
 Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
The earliest known usage is the prayer "Under thy patronage" - Sub tuum praesidium" or in Slavonic "Pod Tvoiu Milost'" (I have the Greek text but it's not handy to the computer).


Yes, this illustrates my observation very nicely, that Theotokos is NOT transliterated in the other (Latin and Slavonic) languages.

Greek: Θεοτόκε

Latin: Sancta Dei Genitrix

Slavonic: богородице дѣво

Sub tuum praesidium


Dn. Anthony
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