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#284047 - 03/25/08 08:37 AM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy]
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JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Member
Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1917
Loc: Georgia U.S.
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Also, I want to point out that this issue points out a fundamental difference in the way that Catholics and Orthodox usually do ecclesiology. It would seem that the teaching of Vatican II, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI, begins with the notion of the universal church of which individuals and invidual churches are members. In Orthodox ecclesiology, it is now common to think of the fullness of the Church, it's universality, being manifest in every local Church. So it is possible for an Orthodox to say that the True Church of Christ is found at any Eucharist celebrated with Orthodox faith and practice. As far as I can tell, there are no degrees of membership in Orthodox ecclesiology. A local Church is simply the Church or, in the case of defective faith and practice, it isn't. Yet, the carefully nuanced statements of the Catholic Church seems to allow for a continuum along the line of "true Churchness" so to speak. I suppose that this is something that the members of the theological commissions would want to clarify.
Joe
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#284075 - 03/25/08 01:57 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Ray Kaliss]
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Epiphanius
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 299
Loc: Orlando, Florida
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It is significant in Revelation that when Jesus is talking to the churches (letters to the churches) if he has something against a particular church - he did not say "Return to your first doctrines" but rather "Return to your first LOVE." as if it was a failure to-love that gives rise to the differences in doctrine. Jesus names the disease ... and does not confuse the symptom (differing doctrines) with the cause (failure to love one another).
Excellent point! 
I have often reflected on this in regard to Mt.16:5-12, in which Our Lord gives his Apostles the famous admonition, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees!" In verse 12, the Apostles come to realize that Jesus is speaking about the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees--but just what is that doctrine?
I would answer that it is an understanding of the Law that fails to subordinate every part of that Law to the Great Commandment: "ye shall love the LORD your God with your whole heart, with your whole soul, with your whole mind and with your whole strength, and ye shall love your neighbor as yourself!" Without that "why" (or logos) behind it, any law can be interpreted in a way that is different from--or even contrary to--its intended purpose ("letter" vs. "spirit").
With this in mind, we can begin to look at our doctrinal differences from their true perspective! 
Peace,
Deacon Richard
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#284142 - 03/26/08 08:47 AM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Marian
inactive
Member
Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 809
Loc: +
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Love can never be separated from truth, and of its very nature that includes doctrinal truth.
I agree this. As Orthodox, sincerely, I believe with all my soul that the Holy Orthodox Church has the fullnesses of truth, and is the true Church, who kept intact the truth and the dogmas of all the ecumenical synods.
Saying this, I do not say something against the Holy Romano-Catholic Church, here is included also the Holy Byzantine-Catholic Church, obedient to the Father Pope.
I think that the Western world is very secular. I see this best at Roma. I think that the RCC must be much more conservative regarding the Evangelic life and the teachings/dogmas of the first ecumenical councils (common synods).
Otherwise it is possible that all become some warmish. Nor cold nor warm.
I felt this difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism at Roma. Very different styles. Different living.
There are two places at Vatican where I felt well. In the great Basilica of St. Peter, on the right part there is La Pieta of Michelangelo. Absolutely beautiful. But not enough. For me it is far from the icon of Glykophiloussa, who is Divine and so philokalic.
But a little further there are two chapels. First it is the chapel of the Holy Sacraments. I loved that little space, where more souls JUST pray, no left, no right. Eyes on Christ.
After this chapel, further, it is the chapel of the Penitence. I love this place.
We all are on the path to the Kingdom of God, right? In this chapel, open space, I saw a young woman, knelt on that typical Catholic bench, I hope you understand. This young woman was crying with many sighs, having her hands crossed over her chest. She was dressed like a secular common woman. I was touched by her cry, rather mute. Large sighs and her tears were just flowing on her face.
I remained impressed in my soul. We all need to repent truly and change our minds. This metanoia is a rara avis and we need to look for Christ, in the particular path of our Church.
Is the most important to have true love and to put our soul for our brother or sister in need.
Christ is Risen!
m+
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#284183 - 03/26/08 12:23 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Epiphanius]
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Marian
inactive
Member
Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 809
Loc: +
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This is because the Truth is one, and the Truth is a person--may He be praised forever!
My soul agrees entirely, Father Deacon Richard.
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amin!
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#284196 - 03/26/08 02:10 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Apotheoun
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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As far as the actual topic of this thread is concerned: I do not believe that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are simply a "part" of the true Church; instead, they (and the various Catholic Churches in communion with Rome) are the whole Church, because Christ is fully present wherever the Eucharist is validly celebrated.
For the sake of clarity I am posting below a comment that I originally made at the Catholic Answers Forum, which sadly was deleted – along with the entire thread – yesterday:
I simply have no way of addressing this without offending someone. I would call it the Papal Communion if I had my way, but that's sure to tick off somebody. If I call it the Roman Communion and I offend others, like yourself, whom I respect greatly. If I call it the Catholic Communion still others object, myself included. I have to respect myself too. I cannot find a compromise term everyone will agree on. Sorry to have offended you.
Michael Michael, Thank you for responding to my post, and rest assured that I am not offended by your comments. I would never ask you to compromise your beliefs, but I would explain my own ecclesiological viewpoint in this way: I am not in the "Roman Communion"; instead, I am a Ruthenian Catholic, i.e., an Orthodox Christian, in communion with Rome. As I see it, the Catholic Church includes the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, which are all presently in full communion with each other, but also includes the Orthodox Churches not yet in full communion with the bishop of Rome, ". . . for in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present" [CDF Communionis Notio, no. 17]. In other words, as true particular Churches the Orthodox are Catholic, and hopefully through ecumenical dialogue full ecclesial communion will be restored between the whole of the East and the Western Church. Sadly, at least for the present, both East and West are wounded, because the lack of full ecclesial communion ". . . hinders the complete fulfillment of [the Church's] universality in history" [CDF Communionis Notio, no. 17]. God bless, Todd
Taken from a CAF thread entitled: "Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin theology?"
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#284199 - 03/26/08 02:17 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: podkarpatski]
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Apotheoun
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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No, I don't get tired of it. 
Of course those who are tired of this topic are not required to read this thread, or any other thread for that matter.
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#284221 - 03/26/08 04:57 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: byzanTN]
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Apotheoun
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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CAF has just restored the thread entitled "Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin theology?" -- to read it click the link below:
Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin Theology?
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