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#284233 - 03/26/08 05:53 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: theophan]
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dochawk
Member
Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 179
Loc: Las Vegas
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It might be more than five if we get the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs together--Copts, Armenians, Syrians, those from India, the Church of the East, etc.
I'll settle for the five major Patriarchs as a starting point . . .
[/quote]
An interesting point, though. I wonder if they could use the same procedure used for Papal conclaves: get them all together, bolt the door, seal with wax, and tell them it's either an agreement or their permanent home. Then what happened in one conclave in history could be applied--when somewhere around two years had passed, the people tore the roof off in winter to force their hand. 
[/quote]
That's exactly the one I want; the source of the name "conclave" (with key). I'll also repeat the diet of bread, wine, and water, and bring my hammers & power tools to help with the roof . . .
Part of the problem though, is that many patriarchs have no final authority to do anything alone without consulting their synods. It might take locking all the sitting bishops in a stadium . .
*sigh* Then establish communion for their own metropolia . . . I suspect that the others would find it more than slightly awkward to not stay in communion with their pentarch once the five were in communion with each other
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#284316 - 03/27/08 12:22 AM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Ray Kaliss]
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Apotheoun
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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I was simply joking in the post that you have quoted, ergo the grin smiley.
The energies of God are not doctrines; instead, they are God Himself as He exists outside of His ineffable essence (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa, Sixth Homily on the Beatitudes).
The incarnation is a doctrine, i.e., a revealed truth, which is perpetually lived and experienced in the life and worship of the Church.
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#284333 - 03/27/08 06:01 AM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Ray Kaliss
Member
Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 483
Loc: Meriden, CT
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The energies of God are not doctrines; instead, they are God Himself as He exists outside of His ineffable essence (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa, Sixth Homily on the Beatitudes).
The incarnation is a doctrine, i.e., a revealed truth, which is perpetually lived and experienced in the life and worship of the Church.
And I was using metaphor. I know what the Eastern concept of uncreated energies is .. it was orginally a concept of virtures (what deifies us). An explianation of how God can be united to us humans. But let us not drop into semantics. It is .. what you say it is.
On the second subject .. do you have any thoughts on petioning the churches to some sort of vuoluntary apostolic confrence? Non-binding, freindly, working out what they do have in common and can agree on ...? ... and totally outside what might be considered any forum where Primacy could apply.
I would like to hear any thoughts you might have on something that might do the trick.
Are we not all very tired of hundreds of years of mistrust, misunderstanding, lack of even human freindship, between churches that were apostolicaly founded. Yes.. there are diffrences and some are insurmountable .. diffrences which exclude real eclesasical union ... but that does not mean we can not fulfill the command to love one another in human freindship which has no right to condem nor demand of the other.
Shall we all just continue along talking about love - but not actually doing it. Brothers of the same family, born in the same house, but barely speaking to each other except to critisize each other and display how 'right' we are.
Is that frindly human love - I think not. The proof is that both the East and West have failed on that score.
Do you not think it is time to make a fresh start outside of the old way? The old ways can stay. That is why I propose the apostolic conmfrence be outside of the usual ecclesatical modes.
-ray
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#284335 - 03/27/08 06:39 AM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Ray Kaliss
Member
Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 483
Loc: Meriden, CT
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The incarnation is a doctrine, i.e., a revealed truth, which is perpetually lived and experienced in the life and worship of the Church.
YOu do not admit a diffrence between the existential reality that we call 'the incarnation' and the doctrine which we use to discribe it? Certainly you do.
Living the doctrine is not the same as living in the reality itself. It is less ... if the reality (existential) is not also present. Even someone who is a Muslim can understand the doctrine of the incarnation ... but not have the real thing it pints to. Where is mystical union in all this - is our mysical union with doctrines or with un-created energies?
Doctines are good and nessesary - but they are not the goal and the end nor can they be the reality they points to that we rest in them as if they were God.
Apophatic - is the final step into God ... So say the Eastern theology.
-ray
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#284396 - 03/27/08 12:48 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Ray Kaliss]
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Apotheoun
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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The incarnation is a doctrine, i.e., a revealed truth, which is perpetually lived and experienced in the life and worship of the Church. You do not admit a diffrence between the existential reality that we call 'the incarnation' and the doctrine which we use to discribe it? Certainly you do. Living the doctrine is not the same as living in the reality itself. It is less ... if the reality (existential) is not also present. Even someone who is a Muslim can understand the doctrine of the incarnation ... but not have the real thing it pints to. Where is mystical union in all this - is our mysical union with doctrines or with un-created energies? Doctines are good and nessesary - but they are not the goal and the end nor can they be the reality they points to that we rest in them as if they were God. Apophatic - is the final step into God ... So say the Eastern theology. -ray
I have no probem with the idea of making a distinction between the doctrine itself (i.e., the revealed mystery), which is the immutable encounter with God, and its expression both in word and sacrament. Nevertheless, I do not accept the idea that the mystery can be separated from its expression, because these things (i.e., both the mystery and its traditional expression) form a single complexus. To put it another way, theology is not dialectical, which means that one can make a real distinction (pragmatika diakrisis) without causing a real division (pragmatike diaresis) either in God (cf. St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, no 75), or in the mystery revealed by Him (i.e., the immutable encounter and its expression).
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#284418 - 03/27/08 05:31 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Ray Kaliss
Member
Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 483
Loc: Meriden, CT
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in which she spoke of those who sought to bring about Christian unity by making doctrine irrelevant. Such a union would itself be irrelevant, because it would not be real.
I do not understand.
Is this something that you think someone here has suggested (perhaps I missed that post) ... or perhaps is a direction in which someone here is heading?
I would assume ... that you thought that the friendship between Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew .. was a wrong. They should not have been friends because the doctrines of their churches are different. Would that be you position? I believe that would be Moscow's stance.
Peace to your Holy Orthodox church.
-ray
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#284420 - 03/27/08 06:15 PM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Ray Kaliss]
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Ray Kaliss
Member
Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 483
Loc: Meriden, CT
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Dear Apotheoun...
I sense you feel very strongly that friendships between churches should only be based upon total doctrinal agreement ... and any friendship otherwise would be to make doctrine irrelevant.
I do not agree with that assessment. But I am aware that for some Orthodox this is very important.
Peace be to your Holy Orthodox church.
-ray
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#284446 - 03/28/08 04:28 AM
Re: Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?
[Re: Ray Kaliss]
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Marian
inactive
Member
Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 809
Loc: +
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A high mountain. Somewhere in the highest of this mountain there is a spring. The air is very strong. Somewhere to the base of this mountain there is a forest. A little further there is the valley in which the men abide in their temporary huts.
From the highest of the mountain, from that well/spring cool and refreshing water comes out. The water goes with much force to the base of the mountain. It becomes a little river, then, when it reaches the forest, it is already a powerful river.
The river does not flow very straight. A hidden mathematical law tell the river to flow in curves. In the river, in the cold and powerful water there are rocks.
These rocks guide the river to the valley of the men. The rocks are little or bigger, every rock with its reason.
The river and its cool and alive waters come finally to the valley where the men abide. The waters give them life, prosperity. The waters help for abundant crops. It is a gift from the highest of the mountain.
In this scene very important are the rocks, many are small, other are bigger or very large, guiding the wild waters. From threshold to another threshold. Beautiful rapids can be seen by the men who strive to climb a wee bit the mountain, from their valley.
These rocks are so beautiful, then it is clear that they have hidden laws engraved in them. They do not dam the alive river, just guide it, so that the river's waters arrive in order to the valley of men.
Every rock touches a wee bit the waters, the guidance is perfect. Around the forest is thriving, every tree is at its place. Nothing is at hazard.
The rocks are of different sizes, even the humble sand grains have their reason for guiding the waters.
Yes, strong rocks. But after all, the river flows freely. So it is the hidden law of this river. Freedom is its first attribute. But the rocks are important as well. This communion river-rocks means life.
My brethren, these rocks are the holy dogmata (dogmas), given us by the Holy Fathers, in the first 7 Ecumenical Synods.
We must return to the principles and humble ourselves. Yes, Roma has presbeia, it is needed humbleness. Returning to a theology beyond the past history and politics.
Forgive me, if I offended someone.
m+
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Orthodox are not permitted to commune outside of the Orthodox church. Although the Catholic church permits Orthodox to commune in their churches, the Orthodox position is that you are cutting yourself off from the Orthodox communion when you do so.
