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#286152 - 04/13/08 05:21 PM
Re: Ecclesiology
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Ghosty
Member
Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 396
Loc: Seattle
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There is no contradiction. Nowhere in article no. 14 does it say that the pope's primacy is a divinely revealed truth; instead, that article speaks of Peter himself being made protos within the Apostolic College, and mentions the papal office only tangentially. Later articles (nos. 16, 17, 19, 20, and 21) explain the nature of the papal office as it developed in the Church as an institution that was given certain functions by the ecumenical councils and later ecclesiastical custom, but none of that concerns divine revelation. All the bishops of the Church are sacramentally equal, and so no bishop can be said to be over any other bishop (cf. Apostolic Canon 34). In other words, primacy is not supremacy .
We're not talking about Divine Revelation or dogma (certainly I've not mentioned it), but about a historical fact and appointment by Christ. Christ made Peter president of the Apostolic College, and that presidency had a real function that was passed on in a most eminent way to the Pope of Rome.
If by primacy you agree that we're not speaking of just precedence of honor, but of a real and unique role (however it may be defined), then we can move forward. If by primacy you mean only the precedence of honor, then we do not agree, and neither do you agree with Sayedna Elias, at least as related in this article.
Peace and God bless!
Edited by Ghosty (04/13/08 05:39 PM)
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#286159 - 04/13/08 06:01 PM
Re: Ecclesiology
[Re: Ghosty]
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Apotheoun
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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We're not talking about Divine Revelation or dogma (certainly I've not mentioned it), but about a historical fact and appointment by Christ. Christ made Peter president of the Apostolic College, and that presidency had a real function that was passed on in a most eminent way to the Pope of Rome. I do not believe that the historic Petrine succession (as opposed to the sacramental Petrine succession received by the entire Episcopate) passed exclusively or even preeminently to Rome. Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome all possess the historic succession from St. Peter, and as St. Gregory the Great said, these three Sees are really one See in three places (cf. St. Gregory the Great, Registrum Epistolarum, Book VII, 40).
Thus, Rome's primacy is founded not upon the historic Petrine succession per se, but upon its rank among the many particular Churches, which is not a part of divine revelation. Moreover, in addition to its rank among the Churches, Rome's presidency within the universal Episcopate is based upon the decisions of the ecumenical councils and ecclesiastical custom.
These things alone distinguish Rome from Antioch and Alexandria, and they are not a matter of "divine institution or essential doctrine of the faith" (Archbishop Elias Zoghby's Vision, no. 16).
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#286182 - 04/13/08 07:33 PM
Re: Ecclesiology
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Ghosty
Member
Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 396
Loc: Seattle
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We're not talking about Divine Revelation or dogma (certainly I've not mentioned it), but about a historical fact and appointment by Christ. Christ made Peter president of the Apostolic College, and that presidency had a real function that was passed on in a most eminent way to the Pope of Rome. I do not believe that the historic Petrine succession (as opposed to the sacramental Petrine succession received by the entire Episcopate) passed exclusively or even preeminently to Rome. Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome all possess the historic succession from St. Peter, and as St. Gregory the Great said, these three Sees are really one See in three places (cf. St. Gregory the Great, Registrum Epistolarum, Book VII, 40). Thus, Rome's primacy is founded not upon the historic Petrine succession per se, but upon its rank among the many particular Churches, which is not a part of divine revelation. Moreover, in addition to its rank among the Churches, Rome's presidency within the universal Episcopate is based upon the decisions of the ecumenical councils and ecclesiastical custom. These things alone distinguish Rome from Antioch and Alexandria, and they are not a matter of "divine institution or essential doctrine of the faith" ( Archbishop Elias Zoghby's Vision, no. 16).
This is simply playing your reading of point #16 against #14, upholding the very contradiction I was suggesting. Either one point is wrong (Rome uniquely possesses the presidency given to Peter by Christ), or #16 is referring to the particular canonical powers which are attributed to Rome (appointing Bishops, demarcating eparchial boundaries, unilaterally deciding universal Canon Law, ect). There's no way out of this fact without either selective reading or wholly abandoning certain points in favor of others.
Peace and God bless!
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#286188 - 04/13/08 07:58 PM
Re: Ecclesiology
[Re: Apotheoun]
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Ghosty
Member
Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 396
Loc: Seattle
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There is nothing in divine revelation about the bishop of Rome.
I never said there was. You brought up Divine revelation, not me. I said the presidency was instituted by Christ, following the article, but I didn't say the Papacy being held in Rome was a matter of Divine revelation. Rather I said it was a matter of historical fact that Rome was looked at in the early Church, even before the advent of universal Canons, as retaining that presidency, in a unique way, through succession.:L
And as far as the article is concerned, points no. 14 and 16 when taken together are perfectly in accord. The problem, as I see it, is that you read the article on Zoghby in line with the Latin tradition of the second millennium, while I do not.
I'm not speaking in any Latin way, but merely pointing out that #14 says that the Pope, in a manner unlike other bishops, is the first in the Church because he succeeds Peter. In saying this I'm saying nothing different than what countless Church Fathers said in the first millennium. I'm not saying anything about how this "first" is to be understood or how it functions, only pointing out that the article says it comes from succession from Peter, and not from later canons.
The developments of the Latin Church in the second millennium have no bearing on these points, aside from the fact that they built into this presidency certain functions that are detrimental to the health of the Church. They certainly didn't create the primacy which was more than a primacy of honor.
Peace and God bless!
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