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#285286 - 04/04/08 12:26 PM
Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
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asianpilgrim
Member
Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Philippines
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Dear all;
Recently I had an online exchange with a US Catholic apologist regarding violence in the OT, especially the repeated commands contained in it to slaughter entire communities, including the innocents.
In a nutshell, my response was that these commands should be seen as having been permitted by God rather than actually, literally commanded by God (given that the concept of causality is not so developed in the OT as it is at present), in the context of progressive revelation and for the sake of a greater good. Furthermore, I argued that some commands to kill, slaughter, etc. were actually commanded by Moses and the other leaders of Israel, and were not actually commanded by the Lord.
My interlocutor's response -- which, I know, represents the traditional Latin response -- is that all these commands (to kill, slaughter, etc.) were real, divine commands, and represented dispensations by God Himself from the moral law. Thus, even the sacrifice of Jepthah's daughter was not sinful because it represented a dispensation by God Himself, allowing for human sacrifice in that instance. The rationale behind this argument is that God is the absolute author of life and death and so had the absolute power to condemn entire peoples (even innocent babies) to death.
My philosophical training tells me that there is somthing seriously wrong about a God who dispenses from His own commandments and His own natural law. Frankly, it also comes across as too "Islamic" for comfort. However, before I formulate a more comprehensive response, I would like to know what the Greek Fathers and Eastern Orthodoxy think of violence in the OT -- especially those instances which appear to have been the result of direct divine commands.
This topic has been discussed sporadically in this Forum the past several years, but I haven't come across any in-depth discussions from the POV of the Eastern Fathers and the Orthodox Church. I saw a reference to Metropolitan George Khodre's essay on Violence and the Gospel but it is not exactly "exhaustive" and it is not clear that it represents the Orthodox position.
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#285320 - 04/04/08 10:54 PM
Re: Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
[Re: asianpilgrim]
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NeoChalcedonian
Member
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Indiana
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Asianpilgrim,
You raise an extremely important question; it is one of great concern to me as well. I believe that the first task should be to acquire an understanding of how Christ & the Apostles read the OT, what was their exegetical methodology [see here & here]. On the question of Scripture's historical content & ancient methods of painting history, I would direct you to Stuart Koehl's comments on this page for I have found them quite helpful.
Scattered throughout St. Maximus the Confessor's writings in the 2nd volume of the Philokalia are observations on what Holy Scripture is and how it should be read; I recommend getting your hands on a copy if you do not have it already. For the Apostles & the Fathers, the Scriptures are first & foremost a book of mysterious divine symbols to be understood in light of the Christ-event (See Gal. 4:24-28.) Some parts do this more clearly than others such that spiritual maturity, careful discernment and divine illumination is necessary to perceive the spirit behind the letter (Luke 24:44-46). For the manner in which the uncreated reveals Himself, acts and realizers His purposes within and through history is a great mystery. I believe that the Bible contains real history, and I also believe that certain passages are the ascription of human events, intentions & actions to divine providence.
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#285323 - 04/04/08 11:30 PM
Re: Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
[Re: asianpilgrim]
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NeoChalcedonian
Member
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Indiana
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Asianpilgrim,
"And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses." (Exodus 9:12)
The above text asserts plainly that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and perhaps this was the understanding of its original author. However, this passage and other difficult passages like it must be contextualized & understood through the Christian understanding of divine-human relations:
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. (James 1:13-15)
“God persuades, He does not compel; for violence is foreign to the divine nature.” [Letter to Diognetus]
Here is another helpful article.
Edited by NeoChalcedonian (04/04/08 11:41 PM)
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#285373 - 04/05/08 05:24 PM
Re: Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
[Re: Wolfgang]
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Prester John
Member
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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The same sun which melts wax hardens clay - hence God's grace on Pharaoh's heart. Grace is constant, but the heart that receives it is transformed by it in different ways.
Vlachos states, quite rightly, that light has two properties; it illumines, and it burns. Catherine of Genoa stated, with an imprimatur, that the fires of hell are the love of God for those who do not love him. This is very Orthodox.
Regarding God's commands in Scripture, I think one should be VERY careful of reinterpreting direct Biblical texts which say the LORD commanded something. That kind of playing with text ALWAYS leads to heresy, because it is being twisted around a preconceived issue - like 'violence,' for example.
Christ said "the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force." (Matt 11:12) Violence is not foreign to our experience, nor should we over emphasize one aspect of our faith over another.
I believe it comes from the idea that murder is the worst sin in the Bible. It is certainly awful, reprehensible, and mortal sin, but IDOLATRY is worse - it kills the soul.
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#285397 - 04/06/08 02:11 AM
Re: Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
[Re: GMmcnabb]
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asianpilgrim
Member
Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Philippines
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I've been doing a lot of research on this topic and I came across this:
http://escholarship.bc.edu/dissertations/AAI9735281/Did God command genocide? Christian theology and the herem. I examine how major Christian theologians have dealt with God's commands in Deuteronomy to kill 'everything that breathes,' the herem, and the narratives in Joshua which tell of this command being carried out. The problem of theodicy pales in comparison with a literal reading of texts where God commands Israel to massacre infants, women and children. Whether it happened in reality or only in the text is not as significant as one might at first suppose. In either case, God is portrayed as standing behind the practice. This God is either beyond morality, or, as many modern scholars believe, Israel misunderstood what God had revealed. In the former case, one's view of God's character suffers. In the latter, one's trust in Israel as a faithful witness to God's words and deeds is severely eroded. I believe that the herem is best understood as hyperbole. When read against its ancient Near Eastern background and in its biblical context, it becomes clear that the original writers and readers would have understood it as such. My approach is consciously interdisciplinary and takes seriously the contributions of archaeology, historical criticism, systematic theology, and the history of exegesis. Augustine's belief in a literal herem was a repudiation of four centuries of non-literal exegesis of the ban. The literal view of the herem which has reigned since Augustine led Christians to conclude that God is capable of commanding genocide. The Crusades were only the most visible example of the deleterious effect of a literal view of the herem. The damage done to humanity's view of God's character has been even more far-reaching. In sharp contrast, most modern scholars have refused to accept a literal herem as coming from God; they assume that Israel simply misunderstood God. But this view has exacerbated a crisis of confidence in the Old Testament as revelation. I believe that the herem, when read in its ancient Near Eastern and biblical context, was intended as hyperbole.
According to this passage, the belief in a literal "herem" or genocide was, in fact, an Augustinian innovation (among many others, as I'm beginning to realize). Which makes me even more eager to know: what did the first Fathers and the Greek Fathers think? According to the thesis I quote here, the Alexandrian and Antiochene Fathers actually denied that the genocide in Deuteronomy is for real.
Thank God for the Greek Fathers.
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#285473 - 04/06/08 08:04 PM
Re: Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
[Re: NeoChalcedonian]
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Krotoski
Member
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 54
Loc: Connecticut
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AsianPilgrim/All,
This link is to a guy named Glenn Miller's website. He's a Protestant and whether or not you accept his conclusions is something you can think about after reading his post on OT Violence. That said, he's done the most research into this area than I've ever seen anyone else do.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html
In Christ,
Aaron
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#285630 - 04/08/08 01:17 AM
Re: Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
[Re: Terry Bohannon]
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Prester John
Member
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Interestingly, St. Isaac the Syrian says that we should never say God is just. Rather, that He is abundantly merciful.
An interesting perspective...
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#285658 - 04/08/08 09:37 AM
Re: Eastern Fathers on Old Testament Violence
[Re: Terry Bohannon]
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asianpilgrim
Member
Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Philippines
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Dear Terry;
I was not able to mention it in my OP, but my own response was shaped by Pope Benedict's clear sympathy in Regensburg for the notion that God, in His very nature, is not a God of violence.
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