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#286110 - 04/12/08 09:23 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Ghosty]
Lawrence Offline
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Registered: 02/20/03
Posts: 1704
Loc: Illinois

When comparing icons to statues one should always remember that while we may have personal preferences, one is not holier or more sacred than the other.

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#286133 - 04/13/08 01:47 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Lawrence]
Ghosty Online   happy
Member


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 395
Loc: Seattle
 Originally Posted By: Lawrence

When comparing icons to statues one should always remember that while we may have personal preferences, one is not holier or more sacred than the other.


Amen!

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#286151 - 04/13/08 04:58 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Lawrence]
Apotheoun Offline
Member


Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
 Originally Posted By: Lawrence
When comparing icons to statues one should always remember that while we may have personal preferences, one is not holier or more sacred than the other.

As an Eastern Christian I respectfully disagree. Icons are filled with divine energy because they are written as an act of prayer by the iconographer. Icons are a theological reality, while there is no theological tradition connected to the production of statues.

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#286153 - 04/13/08 05:22 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Apotheoun]
Ghosty Online   happy
Member


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 395
Loc: Seattle
 Originally Posted By: Apotheoun
 Originally Posted By: Lawrence
When comparing icons to statues one should always remember that while we may have personal preferences, one is not holier or more sacred than the other.

As an Eastern Christian I respectfully disagree. Icons are filled with divine energy because they are written as an act of prayer by the iconographer. Icons are a theological reality, while there is no theological tradition connected to the production of statues.


So are you saying that Western sacramental art, and the veneration thereof, does not impart grace? Or that they lack the holiness of the Eastern tradition?


Edited by Ghosty (04/13/08 05:38 PM)

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#286156 - 04/13/08 05:43 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Ghosty]
Apotheoun Offline
Member


Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
 Originally Posted By: Ghosty
 Originally Posted By: Apotheoun
As an Eastern Christian I respectfully disagree. Icons are filled with divine energy because they are written as an act of prayer by the iconographer. Icons are a theological reality, while there is no theological tradition connected to the production of statues.

So are you saying that Western sacramental art, and the veneration thereof, does not impart grace? Or that they lack the holiness of the Eastern tradition?

Do Western Catholics hold, contrary to the teaching of Trent (cf. Council of Trent, 25th Session, Decree on the Invocation, Veneration, and Relics, of Saints, and on Sacred Images), that divinity is present in icons?

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#286161 - 04/13/08 06:15 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Apotheoun]
GMmcnabb Offline
Member


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 94
Loc: Roanoke, VA/Charlotte,NC
 Quote:
Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images.


I think you are using the word divinity in a different context that what the council is saying. The Council is saying not to worship Icons and Statues like gods, not that Statues and Icons aren't a source of Grace (Divine energy) for those who pray before them.

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#286164 - 04/13/08 06:20 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: GMmcnabb]
Apotheoun Offline
Member


Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
 Originally Posted By: GMmcnabb
 Quote:
Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images.


I think you are using the word divinity in a different context that what the council is saying. The Council is saying not to worship Icons and Statues like gods, not that Statues and Icons aren't a source of Grace (Divine energy) for those who pray before them.

As an Eastern Christian I venerate icons because they are filled with divine energy (i.e., divinity) and power (i.e., virtue), which is precisely what Trent denies.

But Trent, as a Western Synod, is not binding upon Eastern Christians (Catholic or Orthodox), and so it is one of those many sad cases in history where the Latin Church misunderstood the doctrine of the Fathers.

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#286169 - 04/13/08 06:38 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Apotheoun]
GMmcnabb Offline
Member


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 94
Loc: Roanoke, VA/Charlotte,NC
I really think its just a different terminology for the same thing. It really just seems like an arguement over the semantics of whether or not the western Idea of Grace is equivalent to divine energy. I think here Trent is condemning people who pray to Icons and Statues as if they were gods just as the pagens did.
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#286170 - 04/13/08 06:45 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: GMmcnabb]
Apotheoun Offline
Member


Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
I do not agree that it is merely a semantical difference. Either divinity is or it is not present in icons.

As an Eastern Christian I hold that God as energy is present in icons.

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#286174 - 04/13/08 06:51 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Apotheoun]
GMmcnabb Offline
Member


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 94
Loc: Roanoke, VA/Charlotte,NC
Isn't that what Grace is though? God's presence in something?
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#286176 - 04/13/08 06:52 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: GMmcnabb]
Apotheoun Offline
Member


Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Grace is divinity (i.e., divine energy).
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#286177 - 04/13/08 07:04 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Apotheoun]
GMmcnabb Offline
Member


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 94
Loc: Roanoke, VA/Charlotte,NC
So you admit its just a different terminology?
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#286178 - 04/13/08 07:10 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: GMmcnabb]
Apotheoun Offline
Member


Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
No. It is not merely semantical.

I simply stated that grace is God as energy, but I do not accept the Western Scholastic teachings on grace, because I do not believe in "created" grace.

Now it has already been pointed out that Trent denies that divinity is present in icons, but I affirm that divinity, i.e., the uncreated energy of God, is present in them. Clearly, this is not merely a semantical difference, either God Himself is present in icons or He is not.

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#286181 - 04/13/08 07:28 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Apotheoun]
Ghosty Online   happy
Member


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 395
Loc: Seattle
 Originally Posted By: Apotheoun
Either divinity is or it is not present in icons.

Belief that Divinity, as such, is present in an Icon is a violation of the Seventh Ecumenical Council:

 Quote:
The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred cult objects.


If Divinity as such was present in an Icon, it could be given the full worship due to the Divine Nature, which the Council denies.

Leaving that aside, however, the fact remains that both East and West teach that the veneration of Sacred Images, whether Icons or statues, bring grace and true benefits to the faithful. There is a communication of Grace and Divinity via such images and their veneration, but the Divine Nature is not held within an Icon, as per Nicaea II.

Trent is simply stating again what Nicaea II did; it's practically a non-statement, really.

God acts through Icons, that much is certain, but we can't go too far in saying the Divine Nature, in Divine Energies, is present in Icons without violating universal Dogma. I, for one, wouldn't be too quick to pit a later stream of Eastern theological thought against an Ecumenical Council. \:\)

Peace and God bless!


Edited by Ghosty (04/13/08 07:38 PM)

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#286184 - 04/13/08 07:41 PM Re: Militant Latins or Orthodox [Re: Ghosty]
Apotheoun Offline
Member


Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Alas, you fail yet again to take into account the distinction between essence and energy. The essence or nature of God is not present in icons, but His uncreated energies are (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa, Sixth Sermon on the Beatitudes). Thus, I am not in violation of the decrees of any ecumenical council, although I do dissent from the teaching of the Latin Church's particular synod at Trent on this issue.
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