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#286384 - 04/15/08 05:06 PM
Re: Consecretion?
[Re: Serge Keleher]
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Edmac
Member
Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 260
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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I agree with Fr.Serge. The Western mentality is intent on
analysing things; determining "what exactly" and "when exactly'
and "how exactly" things happen. That is all very good and
necessary when applied to the laws by which God has made
the Universe work. However, this method falls short if applied to
matters of supernature. All of us, Catholic and Orthodox, know
that in the Holy Liturgy the elements sacramentally become
the Body and Blood of Our Lord. This is a matter totally
beyond human understanding. We believe it is so because
He told us it is so. To try to define exactly how and when
this takes place is a very doubtful proposition.
Now, the Western Church asks itself very practical questions
like:"the church is surrounded by Moslems or Calvinists or
some other batch of demon-worshippers and they're going to
break in and desecrate the elements. At what point have have
the elements been consecrated so that we must all rush up and
consume them to prevent sacrilege?" The only safe
answer to that is "when the words of institution have been said". How this
comports with supernatural reality
we cannot say, and it does not
really matter.
Question One: In the Byzantine Liturgy the Great Elevation
("Thine of Thine Own") takes place before the epiklesis. What are
we offering to the Father?
Question Two: Is the intention of the priest and of his Church
as to when the consecration shall be consummated relevant?
Question Three: How does this issue relate to the Mysteries
of Holy Initiation? We are baptized into Christ, but yet
need Chrismation/Confirmation in order to receive the Holy
Spirit. There certainly seems to be a parallel here, but I can't
say more than that.
In any event, polemics on this issue from any side should cease.
Each of the Apostolic Churches should accept the position of
all the others as to when consecration takes place in their
Liturgy, and leave it at that.
Edmac
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#286433 - 04/16/08 01:01 AM
Re: Consecretion?
[Re: Edmac]
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A Simple Sinner
Member
Registered: 04/18/07
Posts: 953
Loc: Ohio
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In any event, polemics on this issue from any side should cease.
Each of the Apostolic Churches should accept the position of
all the others as to when consecration takes place in their
Liturgy, and leave it at that.
Fair and reasonable!
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#286436 - 04/16/08 01:19 AM
Re: Consecretion?
[Re: Edmac]
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Serge Keleher
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 2937
Loc: Dublin
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To quote Father Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory: some people spend so much effort to "make sure" that a Sacrament is done "validly" that they pay no attention to the question of what it is that they are "validly" doing!
Fr. Serge
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