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#287172 - 04/23/08 11:33 AM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Stephanos I]
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Amadeus
Member
Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 3890
Loc: Chicago
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Yes, Father, a new wind maybe blowing!
Amado
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#287185 - 04/23/08 01:50 PM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Stephanos I]
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Peter_B
Member
Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 272
Loc: New England
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The last representative was the Episcopal bishop of NY.
Yes, I was thinking about that after I posted. I should have said something like "the LCMS was the last national Protestant group represented".
Peter, I am not 100% sure, but I believe that the MSLC does NOT use episcopal governance structures and as such do not have men titled "bishop"... Maybe he was ELCA? Maybe it was a snag in his introduction?
I'm sure they said he was Missouri Synod; but now that I think about it I'm not sure whether they said "bishop" or not.
The ELCA's representative was the first to be introduced among the Protestants.
I guess I missed that. I thought Episcopal came fourth (right after NCC), then Methodist next.
Blessings,
Peter.
Edited by Peter_B (04/23/08 01:55 PM)
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#287188 - 04/23/08 02:30 PM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Peter_B]
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Amadeus
Member
Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 3890
Loc: Chicago
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This is the exact order of introduction followed by Cardinal Egan of the New York Archdiocese at the "Ecumenical Service". The first 10 represented "national" Churches or denominations while the last 5 represented "local" Churches or denominations.
Cardinal Egan made special mention of Archbishop Demetrios, the Primate of the Greek Orthodox of America, as ". . . a very, very, good friend of the (Catholic) Archdiocese of New York!"
Additionally, the first 3 are apostolic Churches and take precedence over the Protestants:
1. GOA;
2. Armenian;
3. Armenian (as President of the NCC);
4. ELCA;
5. Methodist;
6. Reformed Church;
7. Presbyterian;
8. Baptist;
9. Pentecostal;
10. Evangelical;
11. LCMS (Atlantic);
12. Pres. of the Council of Churches-NYC;
13. Elder Bernice(?) King, daughter of MLK,Jr.;
14. Exec. Director, Council of Churches-NYC; and
15. Episcopalian (Bishop of the Diocese of New York).
Again, Metropolitan Herman of the OCA was not introduced. (Was he really present?)
Amado
Edited by Amadeus (04/23/08 02:34 PM)
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#287297 - 04/25/08 01:57 AM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Amadeus]
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Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
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the Armenian Archbishop first called (or was it the second Armenian bishop?) kissed the ring of the Pope.
Among the Protestants, the representative of the Methodists also kissed the Pope's ring!
Strange?
Amado, my brother,
Actually, both Archbishop Khajag and Archbishop Vycken kissed the Pope's hand - or ring - I think the former. That doesn't seem that surprising to me. Both are of the Catholicosate of Holy Etchmiadzin and, centuries of separation aside, relations between Rome and Armenia (especially Holy Etchmiadzin) are probably among the most fraternal to be found. (I don't think it would be any exagerration to say that the Armenians and Syriacs are on closer terms with Rome, overall, than are any other of the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Churches.)
As regards the Methodist representative, Bishop Jeremiah Park (Korean-born and educated), I believe it was a cultural thing. Bishop Park appeared to touch his forehead to the Pope's hands, rather than to have kissed the hand or ring. That, as he finished, he bowed with joined hands, makes me the more convinced.
I would have liked to have seen a camera angle which would have captured the facial expressions of the presented guests - but, it would have inevitably led to someone trying to lip read, I suppose. The views of HH's facial expressions were interesting; he had a most animated and seemingly pleasant exchange with the Presbyterian representative, Dr. Clifton Kirkpatrick.
It seemed odd that neither the PNC (although it was mentioned) nor the (few remaining) mainstream (traditional) Old Catholic-type Churches (such as the Catholic Apostolic National Church) was represented. The former has established a strong working relationship with the USCCB. The latter, under the leadership of Archbishop-Metropolitan Gubala and Bishop Andre Queen commemorate the Pope at every Mass and both embrace and espouse a theology and spirituality with which any reasonably conservative Latin Catholic would be hard-pressed to find fault.
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#287303 - 04/25/08 08:23 AM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Irish Melkite]
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Peter_B
Member
Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 272
Loc: New England
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It seemed odd that neither the PNC (although it was mentioned) nor the (few remaining) mainstream (traditional) Old Catholic-type Churches (such as the Catholic Apostolic National Church) was represented.
Yes, I too would have liked to see a rep of the PNCC introduced. (I wasn't aware of the Catholic Apostolic National Church until you brought it up; but now that I am, I would like to have seen them represented as well.)
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#287334 - 04/26/08 12:18 AM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Michael_Thoma]
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Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
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How do the CANC claim lineage? And how do they reconcile being "traditional" Catholic, yet having married bishops?
Michael,
I'd have to dig thru some materials that aren't right at hand to give you the specifics of the episcopal lineages of Archbishop Gubala and Bishop Queen. Bishop Brown was originally ordained to the episcopate out of one of the many iterations of the Western Orthodox Church in/of America (WOCA), as I recollect. I'm not sure that I have specifics on Bishop Sawyer (relatively new to CANC, but has a history in the independent movement) or Bishop Pires de Olivera.
However, I'm comfortable with saying that the likelihood is more than strong that all of them have lines that would satisfy the so-called Augustinian theory of succession. And, if there were originally deficiencies in any of their lines, they've undoubtedly been remedied since their association with CANC - which is in communio sacris with the Brazilian Church derived from Bishop Carlos Duarte-Costa. Note that CANC - unlike most all those Churches which claim to be "Old Catholic" and the overwhelming majority of the so-called independent movement "Catholic/Orthodox" Churches - does not devote massive amounts of its webspace to trumpeting its lines. That, in itself, is telling.
As to the married hierarchy, they reference St Peter and others, but don't try to "justify" it - they simply present it as a given. (And, the CANC does not describe itself as a "traditional" Catholic-type Church - that was my choice of term, given their theology and spirituality.) The PNCC has married bishops, as does every Old Catholic-type Church, regardless of how traditional or far-out. Keep in mind that, among the Apostolic Churches, the Assyrians allowed married hierarchs until about the 6th or 7th century. And, although the Church's discipline is certainly stronger for a celibate hierarchy than a celibate presbyterate, it is still that - a discipline.
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#287338 - 04/26/08 12:34 AM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Irish Melkite]
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Rachael76
BANNED
Member
Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 35
Loc: USA
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Do you think that maybe the one Bishop who got excommunicated for getting married outside the Catholic church did it because these Bishops are allowed?
Rachael
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#287341 - 04/26/08 01:16 AM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Rachael76]
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Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
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Do you think that maybe the one Bishop who got excommunicated for getting married outside the Catholic church did it because these Bishops are allowed?
Rachael,
If you're speaking of Archbishop Milingo, his entire thought process is beyond comprehension and I doubt that he's aware of CANC or much else beyond his self-centered world. (And I doubt that CANC would be any more impressed with him than is Rome.)
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#287419 - 04/27/08 10:46 AM
Re: Pope in the U.S. and the Orthodox
[Re: Irish Melkite]
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Rachael76
BANNED
Member
Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 35
Loc: USA
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ok
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