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#287527 - 04/28/08 08:35 AM
Re: Could Eastern Catholics be forced to become Orthodox again?
[Re: Yuhannon]
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Serge Keleher
Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 2937
Loc: Dublin
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There is no ecclesiastical authority at all which has any right to deprive its own members of their freedom of religion. In the case of Catholics, not even the Pope can "extradite" Catholics to some other Christian Church or ecclesial body.
At the same time, the Catholic Church does not seek to "hold" people against their will. The Church is not a slave market or an ante-bellum Southern plantation. If there are people who seriously believe that they are in the wrong Church, then they are free to seek out the right Church and join it - however, that entitlement works in both directions. Orthodox who wish to become Greek-Catholics have precisely the same right as Catholics who wish to become Orthodox.
And there is another question - do the Orthodox really want the Greek-Catholics? One suspects that the answer is not an unmitigated, enthusiastic affirmative. What some Orthodox really seem to want is that the Greek-Catholics should become Latins, and therefore cease to "confuse the issue", whatever "the issue" may be.
But likewise no Catholic authority is able to "deprive" people of their legitimate liturgical traditions, recognized for many centuries by Popes and General Councils. In several cases, that recognition is also expressed by signed, bi-lateral agreements, which would make it even more impossible for Rome to revoke it.
But there is a circumstance which would make everything incredibly easier - the resolution of schism. The Greek-Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and All the East has long made it clear that as soon as ecclesiastical communion is restored between these specific Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates and Rome, the "Melkite" structure will be brought to an end by the resignation of all the "Melkite" hierarchs with an arrangement for the relevant Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates to receive the clergy, faithful, and parishes.
That would answer many problems, although not all of them. The Churches which suffered from the Communist attempt to force them to break with Rome are not going to be in a rush to submit themselves to what they continue to regard as a highly oppressive and cynical group of State Churches. Trying to coerce them will not work.
For the moment, the way forward involves love, prayer, and patience.
Christ is Risen!
Fr. Serge
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#287531 - 04/28/08 09:26 AM
Re: Could Eastern Catholics be forced to become Orthodox again?
[Re: Job]
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Mykhayl
Member
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 272
Loc: Pgh, PA USA
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X. B!
As far as universal (catholic) Orthodoxy, It is too grand of a scope for me to comprehend, so if I can get a little local…
Well Father since it is time of the Resurrection let us really brainstorm the miraculous. As far as Europe’s largest all-inclusive country what if Kyiv is made a patriarchate and keeps communion with all three Romes? Remember we believe in the Resurrection.
If we are going local lets go really local Job. How about those parish clerics who say to their congregation either you conform to my form of “Radical Orthodoxy” (new movement serf it) or go to another church. RC or Orthodox I don’t care just not MINE.
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#287607 - 04/29/08 01:04 PM
Re: Could Eastern Catholics be forced to become Orthodox again?
[Re: Job]
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ebed melech
Member
Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 4371
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
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I don't believe the Church of Rome would officially (or could officially) ever do this. That being said, I have believed for a while now, that there are those at "lower levels" who look to say " Choose! become Orthodox or Roman Catholic. Choose where you want to be and don't try to have a "schitzophrenic" relationship between the Churches."
Job
Such a schizophrenic relationship does not always exist. There are many of us who are very confident in both our Eastern identity and full communion with Rome. That is not to say that there is not a sense of tension at times, but such tensions are dynamic and common in a "mixed" family...one could even say creative and engaging. For my part, I could neither become a Latin Catholic nor could I ever leave communion with Rome and choose the Orthodox churches, as much as I love and respect my Orthodox bretheren. As Father Serge once said, if the Eastern Catholic Churches did not exist we would have to create them!
Where schizophrenia exists, IMHO, is where there are those who outright deny as heretical or severely defective the official teachings of the Catholic communion and yet still remain in that communion. It is one thing to say, "I do not know how to reconcile this with my understanding, so dear God I believe and help my unbelief!" It is quite another to say "I sit in judgment upon Catholic teaching and find it wanting and erroneous, but still remain in visible communion." Personally I would advocate for a change of posture rather than a change of place, but everyone must follow the light of their hopefully informed and formed conscience.
In ICXC,
Gordo
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#287627 - 04/29/08 05:28 PM
Re: Could Eastern Catholics be forced to become Orthodox again?
[Re: Xristoforos]
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Felix
Junior Member
Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Tyler, Texas
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What I feel is that there simply is not enough eastern and western theological unity or agreement to justify Eastern Catholic Churches having communion with St Peter's See at this time.
I am not sure discussing the differences in Catholic Latin and Catholic Eastern theology (if they exist) in a vague way is useful. If severe differences in theology exist, maybe a church council is the way to solve them. If they are minor differences, perhaps that's just something to be tolerated by sister churches within the Catholic Church. But let's set forth what these differences are.
To set them forth, let's not look to Orthodox polemics and readers of such polemics. Instead, let's look to the primary sources (Bible, church councils, canon law, Fathers, catechisms, liturgical texts, documents of hierarchs, etc). Let's cite these in the forum (with quotes) and let's cite any authoritive Catholic (which includes pre-schism materials) interpretations (with quotes). Until we get to that point, the remedy seems unnecessary to discuss. And I am not aware, in my limited knowledge, of things getting to that point in on this website.
Also, a church cannot split every time a disagreement comes up. They must be worked out over time.
Finally, if you accept that the Catholic Church is the true church (I know many people here don't and I do not seek to argue about it), you must have faith and hope in that Church. Faith and hope would include faith and hope in the hierarchy. This faith and hope should lead us to consult with our priests and bishops, not to seek excommunication by the Pope.
That's just my opinion, which is worth as much as I charged for it.
Felix
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#287960 - 05/03/08 06:16 PM
Re: Could Eastern Catholics be forced to become Orthodox again?
[Re: Felix]
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dochawk
Member
Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 179
Loc: Las Vegas
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What I feel is that there simply is not enough eastern and western theological unity or agreement to justify Eastern Catholic Churches having communion with St Peter's See at this time.
I am not sure discussing the differences in Catholic Latin and Catholic Eastern theology (if they exist) in a vague way is useful. If severe differences in theology exist, maybe a church council is the way to solve them. If they are minor differences, perhaps that's just something to be tolerated by sister churches within the Catholic Church. But let's set forth what these differences are.
In any event, schism is never the answerto the question!
Also, a church cannot split every time a disagreement comes up. They must be worked out over time.
Oh, there's a word for that.
"Baptist."
No, I'm not being snarky. There are Baptist groups that have trouble holding a budget meeting without a bitter theological fight/debate. The answer withing these groups is schism. {and, no, this isn't my Catholic evaluation; it comes from a Baptist theology professor from my undergraduate days).
hawk
p.s. An edit to add a snarky microsoft jab: On reading this, I recalled the advice, "If Windows is the answer, you asked the wrong question."
Edited by dochawk (05/03/08 06:23 PM)
Edit Reason: add snark,y microsoft snipe
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#288160 - 05/06/08 07:33 PM
Re: Could Eastern Catholics be forced to become Orthodox again?
[Re: dochawk]
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theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2690
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
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dochawk (and my other brethren here):
Please forgive the little aside. As a student of language, would you be kind enough to give me some background on where this word comes from and bit more focus on its exact meaning.
I guess my age is showing because it seems to be a word current with people younger than I.
However, that being said, I kind of like the way it sounds, if that makes any sense.
BOB
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