Site Links
ByzCath.org Home
Latest News
Liturgical Calendar
Lectionary
Newest Members
wpk, Keithg29, brick22, BensGal, Lady Byzantine, Eli Akim, Kirk, Jerzy, Rusyn53, Lou, evergreen, old orthodox, PresJuliana, Heracleides, Addai
3135 Registered Users
Who's Online
14 registered (tjm199, Heracleides, Doubting Thomas, dwight, Etnick, MrsMW, Edward Yong, JohnS., ebed melech, griego catolico, Pani Rose, 3 invisible) and 227 anonymous users online.
Private Forums
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums: The Deacon’s Door (for deacons and deacon candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum (for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for access.
Latest Photo
Pascha 2008 - Pokrova UGCC Parma, OH
Forum Stats
3135 Members
20 Forums
21737 Topics
284041 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Page 1 of 1 1
Topic Options
#288274 - 05/08/08 04:58 AM Some Very Interesting News on Reunion.
Yuhannon Offline
Member


Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

I got this from the Holy Land Catholic Communications Centre,
 Quote:
The Syrian Catholic and Orthodox Churches are working together and accept cooperation in pastoral work. Three sacraments (Baptism, Eucharist and Anointing of the sick) can be celebrated by clergy of both Churches and are recognized.


This would also mean to some extend this would apply to the Copts, Armenians, and the Syro-Malankara Orthodox since they are in Communion with the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Top
#288303 - 05/08/08 12:19 PM Re: Some Very Interesting News on Reunion. [Re: Yuhannon]
Stephanos I Offline
Member


Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 1861
Loc: West Coast
Sounds like the similar proposition among the Melkites.
There was this idea of dual union, both with Rome and Constantinople, unfortunately it did not work out.
Stephanos I

Top
#288321 - 05/08/08 03:06 PM Re: Some Very Interesting News on Reunion. [Re: Stephanos I]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member


Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3004
Loc: Washington, PA
Yuhannon,

I would not jump to that conclusion. The Copts are not at all in favor of this, and will infact re-baptize converts if they were baptized by pouring rather than triple immersion.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Top
#288324 - 05/08/08 03:21 PM Re: Some Very Interesting News on Reunion. [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member


Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 1410
Loc: Chicago
Fr. Deacon,

You are right. While the Oriental Communion recognizes each other's Sacraments and validity, they have never had mutual recognition of those outside the Communion. The Syriac Orthodox and Rome have agreements regarding inter-Communion within family functions, this agreement does not automatically apply to the other Churches within the Communion, although the Armenians have willingly reciprocated. The Copts have not agreed to this arrangement with Rome, but they do recognize the Syriac Patriarch's right to do so.
_________________________
Subaho Labo Lebaro Vala Rooho † Kadisso. Ameen.
[Glory be to the Father, Son, and † Holy Spirit. Amen.]

Top
#288335 - 05/08/08 05:43 PM Re: Some Very Interesting News on Reunion. [Re: Michael_Thoma]
Mor Ephrem Offline
Member


Registered: 12/04/00
Posts: 1901
Loc: White Plains, New York, United...
I don't know if you can even say that the Copts recognise the Syrian Patriarch's right to enter into these agreements--I don't have a citation or anything, but I recall reading that this has been the subject of internal discussions. The different OO Churches have differing levels of ecumenical activity, but I don't know if anyone has gone as far as the Syrians as far as "liturgical cooperation" goes. It's not without its critics, and it certainly doesn't apply to anyone other than those who made the agreements (e.g., certain of our priests will look at that agreement and interpret it as applicable to us, but that's not the official interpretation of our Church).
Top
#288341 - 05/08/08 08:37 PM Re: Some Very Interesting News on Reunion. [Re: Yuhannon]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2690
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Yuhannon:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

Does this mean that the clergy of the two Churches can serve these Mysteries together or does it mean that the beleivers can go back and forth?

In Christ,

BOB

Top
#288356 - 05/09/08 03:22 AM Re: Some Very Interesting News on Reunion. [Re: theophan]
Irish Melkite Offline
Moderator
Member


Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
Shawn,

The Holy Land Catholic Communications Centre is a relatively new entity (less than 3 months old) "edited by the Assembly of the Catholic Ordinaries in the Holy Land". By that description, I presume its intent is to give a multi-lingual (site available in Arabic, English, French, Hebrew, and Italian) voice to the Assembly - somewhat along the line of what Opus Libani purports to do as the Lebanese Catholic Information Centre.

(Of note, the Syriac Orthodox are represented at the Assembly as a formal observer/informal participant. While other of the EO and OO Churches are also, it seems to me that the Syriac presence has generally been at the highest level - much more so than the others. I was trying to locate a photo of the last such meeting, which I recollect as illustrating this point particularly well, but can't find the thread.)

Until now, the media efforts of the Assembly have essentially depended on the efforts of its constitutent Churches to publicize its events, concerns, and even existence. That has been a less than highly successful approach, given that the media sophistication level among the various ecclesia is widely disparate.

It looks to me as if the piece you picked up on is merely one of a series of items that have been labeled as archived news, just to have something to give meat to the site. It certainly isn't new news. Extraordinarily warm relations between Rome and Syriac Orthodox Antioch date back to 1970 (1971 ?), when Patriarch Mor Ya`qub III and Pope Paul VI, both of blessed memory. signed a Christological Agreement. The formal agreement for provision of pastoral care by the two Syriac Churches to each other's faithful, signed by HH Pope John Paul II, of blessed memory, and HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas (to which the quoted piece refers), is approaching a quarter-century anniversary itself (next year, IIRC).

As Deacons Lance and Phil note, the pastoral provisions are strictly between the Syriacs and can hardly be interpreted as extending to other Churches of the Oriental Orthodox Communion - even the Malankara with formal ties to the Syriac Orthodox, let alone the Copts. (Although Mar Basilios Paulos II, also of blessed memory, then Catholicosate of the East, worked on the final draft of the document, he was not a signatory, as I recollect. Deacon Phil may be able to confirm my memory on this point.)

(As Michael notes, the Armenians are another story, but that Church's openness to informal provision of pastoral care is the consequence of a curious long-standing relationship with Rome, arms-length but fraternal, and can't be specifically related to the Syriac situation.)

The formal Syriac Orthodox-Syriac Catholic relationship has extended into an informal one of like nature between the Syriac Orthodox and both the Melkites and Antiochians. This is most particularly the case in those Middle Eastern countries where civil tolerance of Christianity often means "one village, one temple", regardless of how many Christian 'sects' are represented among the village's inhabitants. Likewise, in those same areas where one Church has too few faithful to support a presbyter and the other is better represented. Such situations invariably produce news stories marveling at joint consecrations of a newly-built temple by hierarchs of two Churches - often heralded as the harbinger of union, but more accurately described as evidencing the love of the respective bishops for their peoples, the fraternity and collegiality that binds them as shepherds of minorities in their own (often hostile) lands, and the familial ties that transcend ecclesial jurisdictions throughout the Middle East (and even among its peoples in the diaspora).

Bob,

To your question, no - concelebration of the Mysteries is not generally acceptable (and, while it may rarely occur, I haven't heard of any verifiable instances and I doubt that any of the Patriarchates would sanction it). What it does mean is that each Church is willing, within the limits of the named Mysteries, to serve the needs of the otherwise pastorally unserved faithful of its Sister Churches. On a practical note, informally, all indications are that there is not a hard and fast adherence to the requirement that the pastoral needs be unmet. Thus, weddings, funerals, etc, may well see an intermingling of faithful and reception of the Mystery without regard for formalities of ecclesial ascription or pastoral need.

Just as a side note, the only other instance in which a formal agreement of this nature exists (or is acknowledged) is that involving the Assyrians and Chaldeans, although one suspects that the matter of Mar Bawai may have disrupted that. Still, there has been no formal announcement of its abrogation.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
#288358 - 05/09/08 03:37 AM Re: Some Very Interesting News on Reunion. [Re: Irish Melkite]
Irish Melkite Offline
Moderator
Member


Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
From the Pastoral Agreement itself:

 Quote:
8. Since it is the chief expression of Christian unity between the faithful and between Bishops and priests, the Holy Eucharist cannot yet be concelebrated by us. Such celebration supposes a complete identity of faith such as does not yet exist between us. Certain questions, in fact, still need to be resolved touching the Lord's will for His Church, as also the doctrinal implications and canonical details of the traditions proper to our communities which have been too long separated.

9. Our identity in faith, though not yet complete, entitles us to envisage collaboration between our Churches in pastoral care, in situations which nowadays are frequent both because of the dispersion of our faithful throughout the world and because of the precarious conditions of these difficult times. It is not rare, in fact, for our faithful to find access to a priest of their own Church materially or morally impossible. Anxious to meet their needs and with their spiritual benefit in mind, we authorize them in such cases to ask for the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from lawful priests of either of our two sister Churches, when they need them. It would be a logical corollary of collaboration in pastoral care to cooperate in priestly formation and theological education. Bishops are encouraged to promote sharing of facilities for theological education where they judge it to be advisable. While doing this we do not forget that we must still do all in our power to achieve the full visible communion between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and ceaselessly implore our Lord to grant us that unity which alone will enable us to give to the world a fully unanimous Gospel witness.

_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
Page 1 of 1 1


Moderator:  Father Anthony 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.108 seconds in which 0.038 seconds were spent on a total of 13 queries. Zlib compression enabled.

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2008. All rights reserved.