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#312629 02/14/09 03:55 PM
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Alice Offline OP
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I came across this recently while trying to find out what date Western Easter would be this year (actually today being 'Saturday of the Souls' on the Byzantine forum confused me enough to search!) Does anyone know anything more about this interesting find:
Quote

Reconciling East and West

A meeting organized by the Council of World Churches (in Aleppo, Syria, March 5–10, 1997) proposed a solution thought to be favorable to both East and West: both methods of calculating the equinox and the paschal full moon would be replaced with the most advanced astronomically accurate calculations available, using the meridian of Jerusalem as the point of measure. Since that meeting, however, no further progress has been made and the problem remains.

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All this would mean is that the Orthodox would start observing the Latin date of Easter over 99 times out of 100. They would never again observe the traditional Orthodox date. A non-starter, I'm afraid, from the beginning.

If Catholics want a unity of celebration in the date of Easter, I'm afraid the only solution is to "condescend" to their "weaker" brethren and accept the "scientifically inaccurate" Julian Calendar based Orthodox reckoning. Can they humble themselves? The Orthodox, I believe, will not accept a change themselves.

Fr David Straut




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I wish that the Ruthenian Church would adopt the old calendar and celebrate Easter according to the Orthodox reckoning.

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Father Bless!

I guess I am just confused. Why would it be imprortant that either change? This IMHO should not be something that divides us. But, then I guess I look at what unifies us more then what divides us.

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ajk Offline
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Originally Posted by Alice
I came across this recently...
Quote

Reconciling East and West

A meeting organized by the Council of World Churches (in Aleppo, Syria, March 5–10, 1997)...


Is this the source for the quote: link ?

The topic has been discussed on the forum, most recently:
Julian Calendar
Any changes in the method of dating Pascha
A common date for Easter when???


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Originally Posted by Kathleen Elsie
Father Bless!

I guess I am just confused. Why would it be imprortant that either change? This IMHO should not be something that divides us. But, then I guess I look at what unifies us more then what divides us.

The blessing of the Lord!

In the early Church, when Christians were divided (though not out of communion) by celebrating Easter on different dates, the Fathers of the Church thought it very desirable to celebrate the Feast of Feasts on a common date. That unity was finally established after centuries of struggle. I, for one, think it was a lamentable thing that that unity was again shattered by the unilateral introduction of the Gregorian Calendar in the Latin Church without consultation with, or the agreement of, the Eastern Church.

Sure, there are certainly greater things that divide the Catholic and Orthodox Churches than the date of Easter. But the overcoming of the great symbolic difference of the date of Easter by the Catholic Church reverting to the original common date of Pascha would go a long way to showing that Rome is serious about unity.

Fr David Straut


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Rome was, in fact, wrong in imposing the Gregorian Calendar, and in departing from the Nicene Canons regarding the date of Pascha. Rome, however, seems incapable of admitting this. One notices that the "common Easter date" promoters are all trying to "Promote" the New Calendar, since those of us who maintain the traditional calendar have never objected to anyone else using the traditional calendar.

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
All this would mean is that the Orthodox would start observing the Latin date of Easter over 99 times out of 100. They would never again observe the traditional Orthodox date. A non-starter, I'm afraid, from the beginning.


Why a non-starter? Aleppo just crunched the numbers, objectively, in a way that I think or would hope modern science and ancient natural philosophy would be able to agree upon. The ancient Roman and Alexandrian astronomers and mathematicians were trying to do their best at accomplishing the same essential calculation invoked by the Aleppo study; they just didn't have computers, calculus, telescopes and earth satellites.

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
If Catholics want a unity of celebration in the date of Easter,...


Catholics? Why Catholics? The Aleppo study was under the auspices of the WCC; the Catholic Church is not and never has been a member of the WCC, whereas Orthodox churches were and are.


Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
... I'm afraid the only solution is to "condescend" to their "weaker" brethren and accept the "scientifically inaccurate" Julian Calendar based Orthodox reckoning. Can they humble themselves? The Orthodox, I believe, will not accept a change themselves.


In those words then, perhaps this is the proper opportunity for Orthodox to show the way and "humble themselves." Actually, it is not humility that is required, just an impartial interpretation of the agreed upon historical and astronomical facts.

The only real arbitrary variable in the method, the calculations used in the Aleppo study, is the choice of the meridian, which they fix at Jerusalem. Basically, if the meridian effectively can vary so that a simple method, a table, can then be constructed to make the determination easier and keep the equinox at a fixed date (which is what a calendar is supposed to do), there are a number of possibilities, one of which is the Gregorian Calendar. Another possibility, if one allows the equinox date to accumulate an increasing difference relative to the calendar date, which is what a calendar is not intended to do, then one has the Julian calendar and associated Paschalion.

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Rome was, in fact, wrong in imposing the Gregorian Calendar, ...
Rome offered the calendar to fix an obvious problem. Most accept, some do not. Upon whom is Rome imposing the Gregorian Calendar?

Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
...Rome was, in fact, wrong in ... departing from the Nicene Canons regarding the date of Pascha.
The core agreed upon facts about the purported "Nicene Canons regarding the date of Pascha" demonstrate that the Gregorian Calendar, Rome, is in intentional and actual conformity, and that the Julian Paschalion is not, and not just simply not, but emphatically not.

Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
... Rome, however, seems incapable of admitting this.
Rome cannot, certainly should not admit to something that is not true.

Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
One notices that the "common Easter date" promoters are all trying to "Promote" the New Calendar, since those of us who maintain the traditional calendar have never objected to anyone else using the traditional calendar.


Disinterested '"common Easter date" promoters' may have no choice in that the facts simply support the legitimacy and accuracy of the Gregorian Calendar if the intent is to keep "Easter" tied to the actual equinox, the beginning of spring. For those who are content with a calendar where the date of the (northern hemisphere) spring equinox -- that is when we actually can feel and sense by temperature and daylight the changing season -- is slowly moving towards the summer months, then the Old Calendar will do the job. It is quite wrong, however, to then insist that somehow the defect is in the Gregorian type approach and to make outlandish claims of accuracy and fidelity for the Old Calendar. It's like insisting that an hour glass (Julian calendar/Paschalion) is in fact more accurate and faithful in keeping time than an atomic clock (the Gregorian calendar).

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Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
I, for one, think it was a lamentable thing that that unity was again shattered by the unilateral introduction of the Gregorian Calendar in the Latin Church without consultation with, or the agreement of, the Eastern Church.
I think this may be perpetuating the myth of the West simply ignoring the East. And who speaks for the East even today? The calendar problem was understood by both East and West early on, but, no problem, no rush, there's always tomorrow. Then schisms, 1453, and by 1582 a 10 day and increasing error. Also, it seems the Syrian Nestorian patriarch Na'amat Allah was a member of the papal commission to reform the calendar; he was apparently well informed about Arabic and Persian astronomy. He even proposed the now well known and much more accurate and stable (than the Gregorian calendar) cycle of 33 years. The pope apparently rejected it in favor of a less dramatic fix, one that did not disrupt the basic 4 year leap year sequence of the Julian calendar. I guess it was a pastoral compromise on the part of the Pope.

ajk #312655 02/14/09 09:25 PM
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ajk,

The Patriarch you mention as the astronomer was of the (miaphysite) Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
ajk,

The Patriarch you mention as the astronomer was of the (miaphysite) Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch.
Thanks very much for this correction. The identification was from a single source of astronomical/astrological rather than religious orientation.

ajk #312666 02/14/09 11:09 PM
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Pascha should not fall before jewish passover and that is one of the biggest reasons i see for not moving to the gregorian calender. When it comes to the Orthodox it is a shame that there is a division simply for the people to be more comfortable around there neighbors.

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This thread has proved one thing . . . the two sides are unlikely to agree on a common date for celebrating Easter.

Nevertheless, I wish that the Ruthenian Church would adopt the old calendar and celebrate Orthodox Easter.

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Alice Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
This thread has proved one thing . . . the two sides are unlikely to agree on a common date for celebrating Easter.

Nevertheless, I wish that the Ruthenian Church would adopt the old calendar and celebrate Orthodox Easter.


In Greece, I have heard that the *Roman Catholics* always celebrate Pascha on the same day as the Orthodox. If they can concede for the common good, then why can't all Catholics!! smile

In Christ,
Alice

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