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I stumbled across this Western Orthodox website which stated that during a period from the Middle Ages through the 1600's, most of the Russian Orthodox Church held a more Western view of original sin and the Immaculate Conception.

Here are some excerpts:

From the middle ages to the seventeenth century the Russian Church has, as a whole, accepted belief in the Immaculate Conception .

The Academy of Kiev, with Peter Moghila, Stephen Gavorsky and many others, taught the Immaculate Conception. A Confraternity of the Immaculate Conception was established at Polotsk in 1651. The Orthodox members of the Confraternity promised to honour the Immaculate Conception of Mary all the days of their life.

The Council of Moscow of 1666 approved Simeon Polotsky's book called The Rod of Direction, in which he said: "Mary was exempt from original sin from the moment of her conception."

Orthodox Religious associations organized to honour the Immaculate Conception abounded in the Middle Ages and later. They wore a medal similar to the Miraculous Medal of more recent times, invoked the Virgin as the “Immaculate Mother” and even took the “bloody vow” or a vow to defend to the death her Immaculate Conception.

The Immaculate Conception also came to be reverenced in Orthodox countries, especially during the height of the Baroque period in the Kyivan Church and also by Greeks, as Father John Meyendorff has shown.

When as a result of other Greek influences, attacks were launched in Moscow against the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, a protest was made by the Old Believers - a traditional group separated from the “oofficial” Church by reason of its faithfulness to certain ancient rites. Again in 1841, the Old Believers said in an official declaration that "Mary has had no share in original sin". To all those who know how deeply the Old Believers are attached to the most ancient beliefs and traditions, their testimony has a very special significance.


Interesting!

http://www.immaculateconceptionmonastery.com/immaculate.html






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The Academy of Kyiv is not the Russian Orthodox Church. St. Peter Moghila wrote a Confession of Faith in response to the advent of the Unia, but which was considered excessively latinized and underwent significant revision before being accepted as fully Orthodox. I'd be careful of your source, which is oversimplifying and engaging in special pleading. Also be aware that (though they would be loathe to admit it) the Church of Moscow was also subject to significant Western influence from the 17th century onward.

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Originally Posted by desertman
I stumbled across this Western Orthodox website which stated that during a period from the Middle Ages through the 1600's, most of the Russian Orthodox Church held a more Western view of original sin and the Immaculate Conception.


All other things being equal, keep in mind that this is not a Western Orthodox website that you stumbled across. It is a website of Holy Trinity Celtic Orthodox Church, A Traditional, Western Rite, Orthodox Church, Served by the Celtic Orthodox Benedictine Fathers. Translate that to mean vagante.

Many years,

Neil



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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by desertman
I stumbled across this Western Orthodox website which stated that during a period from the Middle Ages through the 1600's, most of the Russian Orthodox Church held a more Western view of original sin and the Immaculate Conception.


All other things being equal, keep in mind that this is not a Western Orthodox website that you stumbled across. It is a website of Holy Trinity Celtic Orthodox Church, A Traditional, Western Rite, Orthodox Church, Served by the Celtic Orthodox Benedictine Fathers. Translate that to mean vagante.

Many years,

Neil



Dear Neil,

What do you mean by "vagante"?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

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The Academy of Kyiv is not the Russian Orthodox Church. St. Peter Moghila wrote a Confession of Faith in response to the advent of the Unia, but which was considered excessively latinized and underwent significant revision before being accepted as fully Orthodox. I'd be careful of your source, which is oversimplifying and engaging in special pleading. Also be aware that (though they would be loathe to admit it) the Church of Moscow was also subject to significant Western influence from the 17th century onward.


The excerpts from the site seem to have been copied and pasted (and slightly altered?) from this article from another Orthodox site:
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/articles/catholic/holymother.htm

I think it's a good article.
I just realized that it's written by a Ukrainian Catholic named Dr. Alexander Roman.




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Manuel,

'vagante' means, in strict translation, 'wandering'. This is an old post that I once used to explain the concept elsewhere;

Quote
Episcopi vagante literally means 'wandering bishops'. It originated in the Middle Ages when bishoprics were sometimes bought, granted as political plums, or obtained through nepotism. Depending on the circumstances, such bishops may or may not have received a benefice (a diocese or other canonical entity that carried an income with it) and some who did receive such later lost it, as the politics of the kingdom shifted. A bishop without a jurisdiction, or who had been deprived of his, would wander, preaching, and supporting himself by donations and came to be termed an episcopus vagante.

In modern times, the term came to be applied to 'bishops', sometimes validly ordained, sometimes not, who claim to be of a mainstream religious belief, but aren't in communion with the established Church(es) of that faith. Catholics don't have a monopoly on vagante bishops; all of the hierarchical Churches which emphasize the importance of their Apostolic Succession - Latin and Eastern Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, and Lutheran (at least in the 'High Church' divisions of the latter two) can point to vagantes whose origins lie with them.

Some potential hallmarks of a vagante, in no particular order, are that:

  • they have grandiose titles (e.g.patriarchs, primates, supreme archbishops, and similar styling abounds among the genre);
  • they are vested in liturgical finery that would be the envy of a member of the papal court in its hour of greatest opulence;
  • they are surrounded by a small cadre of clerics with equally important titles, including sometimes multiple bishops, each of whom has been accorded a piece of the universe as their episcopal jurisdiction;
  • they post elaborate hierarchical genealogies on their websites or in their publications, purporting to prove their Apostolic Succession;
  • they offer the opportunity for ordination to the priesthood, and perhaps even to the episcopacy, to those who apply by e-mail or letter outlining appropriate credentials for same or who indicate a willingness to undertake a course of study (for a fee);
  • they 'float' from one 'Church' to another, as there are splits in their ranks, frequently as a consequence of in-fighting among the leadership;
  • the name of their 'Church' will frequently include terms like "Catholic", "Orthodox", "Apostolic", often combined in imaginative ways;
  • the name of their 'Church' often suggests that it is a jurisdiction of, a branch of, or otherwise connected with an established mainstream Church or that it is a free-standing canonical jurisdiction (e.g., a patriarchate, an archdiocese, a primature, a diocese);
  • the name of their 'Church' suggests an ethnicity of origin that is belied by the appearance or surnames of the hierarchs and/or by any apparent connection with a mainstream Church of similar ethnicity or national origin;
  • their 'Churches' frequently are 'in communion' with other 'Churches' whose hierarchs display much the same characteristics as themselves;
  • their 'Church' consists of a single edifice, a storefront, an altar in their garage or family rec room, or lacks any street address, apparently existing only in the ethereal plane;
  • those whose 'Churches' have 'parishes' will sometimes be shown (e,g., on websites) to each worship according to different rubrics and to even express different theological tenets;
  • their 'Churches' may mix theological doctrine with New Age, Eastern, spiritualistic, psychological, even alternative and holistic health concepts;
  • they use obscure, sometimes historical, sometimes apocryphal, liturgies in their worship.


(The term ecclesius vagante is sometimes used to refer to the 'Churches' these folks establish, but it doesn't really express a meaningful concept in the same way that episcopus vagante does.)

True vagante have to be distinguished from those who have broken from their parent Churches, but have established an actual ecclesial entity, schismatic and/or heretical in the eyes of the parent, but with a level of respectability not usually accorded to those labeled vagante. To be fair, some of what are now considered mainstream, though schismatic, heretical, or non-canonical, Churches would, at their inception, have been deemed the product of an episcopus vagante.


If you do a search here, using 'vagante' as the search term, and setting the time parameter as anything from 'older than 1 month' to 'older than 6 years', you can find a lot of threads dealing with the genre.

There is a fairly representative one with a lot of info in it here

Many years,

Neil

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Thank you Neil.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

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Originally Posted by desertman
The excerpts from the site seem to have been copied and pasted (and slightly altered?) from this article from another Orthodox site:
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/articles/catholic/holymother.htm

I think it's a good article.
I just realized that it's written by a Ukrainian Catholic named Dr. Alexander Roman.


Alex is an old friend and has been a member here. He is, as recollection serves, a fan of St Peter Moghila and I'd be inclined to agree with Stuart (not an everyday occurrence) that (1) the thinking is suggestive of St Peter's Confession of Faith, and (2) that Imperial Russia and Orthodoxy in Russia were both heavily westernized from the 17th through 19th centuries in much of their religious thinking.

Many years,

Neil


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'vagante' means, in strict translation, 'wandering'. This is an old post that I once used to explain the concept elsewhere;


Wow shocked Sounds similar to some of the sedevacantists on the Roman side. I've learned my lesson!





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Sedes are less dangerous. Once a priest tells you the last pope was Pius XII, you know from whence he's coming.

Vagante are not always so obvious.

I could show you a website that would cause you to laugh aloud at the 'patriarch' vested in what looks to have once been your grandma's draperies (the ones that Goodwill declined to accept as a donation) or another where the 'patriarch' holds a staff that was clearly bought from the drapery rod display in the window treatments dept at Home Dept.

But, I can also show you sites that show their 'bishop' being greeted by Catholic or Orthodox Church leaders - the Pope or the EP. Ones (including the one you were at) which have posted letters that appear to indicate they are in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

(Your site claimed communion w/ the OCA, Constantinople, and Alexandria, as memory serves - using polite responses written in the '70s to letters from Bishop Peter Zhurawetsky, a vagante of the time. Legitimate hierarchs too infrequently responded to such things, having no idea to whom they were writing or the purposes to which their response would be put. It's only very, very recently that such correspondence is being more carefully vetted.)

Many years,

Neil


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"Vagante" is pretty much a Catholic concept since we Orthodox generally adhere to the Cypriatic view of Holy Orders. As such we don't really believe in vagante orders. From an Orthodox perspective the question is, are they Orthodox or not? In this case they clearly are not.

I don't know if Rome would recognize their orders. But I am comfortable saying that the Orthodox Church would not.

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John,

Vagante 'were' pretty much a Catholic problem at one time, now they are an equal opportunity problem and the number of vagante calling themselves 'Orthodox' is significantly higher in number than the ones calling themselves 'Catholic'.

And, while you and I might spot them immediately as not Orthodox, myriad inquirers do not. They see the O word, they see an icon, they hear a term in a foreign tongue, and voila! They are sure they have found Orthodoxy. They are jsut wondering how many months until the Food Festival.

I'd hate to tell you how many posts I've answered at OC.net over the years in response to newbie posters asking 'what can anybody tell me about this wonderful church that I just started attending - St Walburga's Pan-Slavic Holy Celtic Orthodox Church of the Western Rite?' or some much more mainstream name that doesn't give off any hint that 'you aren't in Constantinople, Dorothy'.

Many years,

Neil

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Maybe they are vagante, but is what is claimed true or not? did the Russian Church ever embrace the IC?

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Yes.

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The Academy of Kiev, with Peter Moghila, Stephen Gavorsky and many others, taught the Immaculate Conception.

Here are some things to keep in mind. Moghila was Moldovan, Kiev at the time was under the Omophorion of Constantinople and in the political control of Poland. The language of the Kiev Academy was Latin. The Latin influences (whether you think they are good or bad), were pervasive in the period. Moghila saw no substantive differences with the Roman Catholic Church beyond the Papacy, but believed firmly it did not have authority in his church. That was unlike his challenge with Protestantism, which was deeply ideological. He drew on western sources to frame the beliefs of the church in this conflict. Even within the Russian Empire at the time, western ideas were starting to be absorbed. The ecclesiastical party in particular can be seen in retrospect to mimic Roman Catholicism, even while outwardly rejecting it. Vonifatiev for instance it was remarked upon by one traveler was simply a Cardinal under a different name.

When the political lines shifted between Muscovy and Poland in the 17th century, much of the Ukrainian and White Russian clergy trained along the lines of the Kiev Academy became extremely influential in the Russian Church. Their ideas persisted well beyond the period. The Catechism of St. Philaret of Moscow for instance reads much like the Baltimore Catechism.


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