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#89487 - 11/04/03 01:44 PM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Theophilos
Member
Registered: 12/03/01
Posts: 315
Loc: New Jersey
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Dicsoseg Jeszus Krisztusnak!
The ACROD church in Rahway, NJ has the word "Hungarian" in their official incorporation and etched on their cornerstone (something like "Saint John the Baptist Russian Orthodox Hungarian Greek Catholic Church")
Also, I'm not sure it's politically correct, or even historically accurate (pace Pekar), to describe Hungarian Greek Catholics as Magyarized Rusyns. I know for a fact it's not acceptable in my household, no matter how many Slav branches and twigs I can identify in my wife's family tree.
St. Michael's in Perth Amboy doesn't have an icon screen and is very Latinized. How exactly is it a facsimile of the Mariapocs church (which has a floor-to-ceiling screen)?
St. Joe's in New Brunswick is a beautiful little church, which I attended (and cleaned) while I was an undergrad. The people there were extremely warm.
In Christ,
Theophilos
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#89488 - 11/04/03 01:52 PM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Inawe
Member
Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1698
Loc: Hollywood, Florida
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Theophilos,
Good to see you!
Steve
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#89489 - 11/04/03 02:20 PM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Theophilos
Member
Registered: 12/03/01
Posts: 315
Loc: New Jersey
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Steve:
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Good to see you, too. Hope all is well.
In Christ,
Theophilos
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#89491 - 11/05/03 11:19 AM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Theophilos
Member
Registered: 12/03/01
Posts: 315
Loc: New Jersey
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Dave:
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Thanks for the clarification. As I said, I'll look closely at the cornerstone this Sunday.
I've never heard any of the parishioners refer to themselves as Hungarian, but it's quite possible, even likely. Its Byzantine Catholic sister church in Rahway -- now St. Thomas the Apostle -- has more than a few ethnic Hungarians.
By the way, St. John is my family's home parish (the Orthodox half, anyway). My cousin by marriage is currently the cantor.
In Christ,
Theophilos
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#89493 - 11/06/03 03:10 AM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
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Originally posted by Mexican:
I have been told that today, many of the Hungarian Greek Catholics are descendants of Calvinist and Protestant sectarians, who converted to the Catholic Church through the Eastern Rite. It's probably the only "artificial" eastern Church in a certain way, since Greek was their liturgical language for about a century even when there were no Greeks among them.
The Byzantine Hungarian Catholic Church is not "artificial", nor was it in the past. Its Byzantine origins trace back as far as the Middle Ages, although it suffered near extinction in the 13th century, as a consequence of the havoc wreaked on the nation by the Tartar invasions. Among the most affected institutions were the monasteries of the Byzantine tradition that had flourished in Hungary and much of Eastern Europe from the 11th into the 13th centuries; they were effectively wiped from the earth.
Admittedly, most Hungarians who came to Byzantine Catholicity in the 16-17th centuries were descendents of Macedonian, Greek, Rus, Slovakian, Serbian, and other immigrants to Hungary, not ethnic Magyars in the first instance. Displaced by Turkish incursions into their own lands, these mainly Orthodox Christians, in time, turned to the Catholicism of their adopted homeland, but chose to do so in the Byzantine tradition that offered a final vestige of their heritage.
As you note, a century later, a number of Calvinist and other Protestant Hungarians, for reasons that I've never seen satisfactorily explained, in converting to Catholicism, elected to embrace the Byzantine Rite.
Ultimately, there was a groundswell of demand for the Liturgy to be served in the vernacular, apparently prompted by realization that this wasn't unknown in the Byzantine Slavic religious communities. (Probably made more pressing because many of the Byzantine hierarchy at the time were not Hungarian, contributing to a clergy-laity divide.) Rome was opposed and most liturgical texts weren't available in Hungarian until the 19th century, and even then were being published without ecclesiastical approbation.
In 1900, HH Leo XIII was petitioned by Hungarian Byzantines for a canonical jurisdiction particular to their Rite and for use of the Hungarian language in their Liturgy and services. Finally in 1912, HH Pius X erected the Diocese of Hajdúdorog for Byzantine Hungarian Catholics. He did not, however, approve the use of Hungarian, other than for non-liturgical purposes; the use of Greek was mandated for the Liturgy and the clergy was instructed to become proficient in its use within 3 years. (Greek served the same role in Byzantine Churches, other than those of the Slav tradition, as did Latin in the Western Church.) Because of the outbreak of WWI, the requirement was never enforced and, 20 years later, Hungarian had been accepted for use and publication of the appropriate texts had been canonically approved and published.
There are also Gypsy Greek Catholics. I had the opportunity to see a 1970's TV programme about the gypsies around the world. They showed a Church and a priest wearing hellenic vestments (very Greek), celebrating in Hungarian, and communion was given in a definately Eastern way. But I was shocked to see an electric guitar leading the chant (Please I am not kidding I swear I saw this!). I suppose that now these practices are gone but I am not so sure.
The particularities of which Church sui iuris the Eastern Catholics among them embrace is often a function of the nation with which a particular clan or tribe identifies. (Although the nature of their nomadic existence has often allowed them a measure of freedom in border-crossing not enjoyed by more mainstream folks, most Rom populations have linguistic, ethno-cultural, and religious ties to some particular geo-political entity.) BTW, the Catholic Church, as well as some other denominations (the Anglicans come immediately to mind, but are not the only ones), have a designated ministry to the Rom and other itinerant and migrant peoples (e.g., the "Travelers" of Britain and Ireland). In Eastern Europe, the Salesians, among the Latins, and Slovack Jesuits, among Byzantines, have particular apostolates directed at the Rom.
Although there are no defined "usages" peculiar to the Romany, you would be likely to find any manner of customs (including especially the use of musical instruments - even as jarring as we might find the use of an electric guitar to accompany Byzantine chant) introduced by them into any Liturgy served for them - Latin, Byzantine Catholic, or Orthodox. The Rom are, generally, very devoted to their Church, but often highly unconventional in their practice of its ceremonies and the Churches, almost universally, are very tolerant of this. (Perhaps, it would be more accurate to say that the clergy who minister to their spiritual needs are very tolerant, I'm not sure that official ecclesiastical approbation is often sought, or likely to be forthcoming if asked.)
They are devoted to: Saint James the Greater; the Black Madonna (in any of several presentations); Saints Caspar, Melchior, & Balthazar -the Magi; Blessed Ceferino Giménez Malla (1861-1936, beatified 1997, a Rom and Secular Franciscan who was shot and killed in Franco's Spain at age 75 for coming to the defense of a priest and then pulling out a rosary when asked if he had any weapons); and, especially to she whom they rever as their patron saint, Saint Sara-la-Kâli (Sara the Black). "Saint" Sara (never formally canonized) is said to have been the servant who traveled from Judea to Europe with the 3 Marys, when they fled from the Holy Land after the Crucifixion. She is said to have been a gypsy.
I don't have my Index at hand, but National Geographic, several years back, did at least 2 pieces on the Romany which devoted significant space to the place of religion in their lives. The Rom (and the "Travelers") are particular interests of mine; if you have other questions, I'll be happy to try and answer them.
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#89495 - 11/06/03 11:33 AM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Little Green Coat
Member
Registered: 12/19/01
Posts: 149
Loc: New York City
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I believe Holy Cross church in manhattan if it is still open was Hungarian
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#89496 - 11/06/03 01:35 PM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Elizabeth
Junior Member
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Pittsburgh
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I am a parishoner of St. John's in Solon, Oh, and I believe the Hungarian ethnicity of our church has made our parish more accessible to those of other ethnic groups. Our pastor has been in a position where he would receive rebukes for saying anything in Slavonic or Hungarian, with Slavs angered over Hungarian and the Hungarians insulted by Slavonic. The most peaceful solution to this has been to meet the parishoners where we can all agree, in English!
Not much remains of the Hungarian ethnicity in our parish life beyond great food and some entertainment preferences. While maintaining our Hungarian culture would be great for us Hungarians, it would be a hindrance to half of our parishoners; it is not and has never been their ethnicity!
Us Hungarians still have the opportunity, though, to join a city-wide Hungarian club that has dances, picnics, and other culture-preserving activities.
I rejoice because St. John's has become an American parish that reaches to Italians, Indians, Polish, Semites, Asians, and hopefully more in the unique ministries of our church family.
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#89497 - 11/06/03 04:29 PM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Fr. Al
Member
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 185
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
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Anyone know where I can get a Byzantine Prayer Book and/or Liturgy Book in Hungarian?
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#89498 - 11/06/03 04:43 PM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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incognitus
Member
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 3516
Loc: .
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As early as 35 years ago I remember once being stunned to hear the following announcement over the PA system during a Uniontown Pilgrimate: "The Hungarian Liturgy will be in English"!
Incognitus
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#89499 - 11/07/03 01:27 AM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
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Father Al,
Try the Hungarian Bookstore.com
Hungarian Bookstore Religious Offerings
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#89500 - 11/07/03 11:09 AM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Joe T
Member
Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
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St. Michael's parish in Lorain has recently been closed. I believe the Orthodox bought the building.
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#89501 - 11/17/03 01:02 AM
Re: Byzantine Hungarian Parishes - US
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Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
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Thank you all
This is the compiled list of all the parishes that you reported. I appreciate the time you each took to answer.
Holy Cross, NYC, NY
(or ? Exhaltation of the Holy Cross)
Holy Trinity, Bridgeport, CT
Our Lady of Mariapocs Shrine, Burton, OH
St. Elias, Munhall, PA
St. George, Youngstown, OH ? closed
St. John, Solon, OH
St. John the Baptist, Trumbull, CT
St. John the Baptist, Youngstown, OH ? closed
St. Joseph, New Brunswick, NJ
St. Mary, Coatesville, PA
St. Mary, Duquesne, PA
St. Michael, Lorain, OH ? closed
St. Michael, Perth Amboy, NJ
St. Michael, Oregon, OH
St. Nicholas, Ashtabula, OH
St. Nicholas, Trenton, NJ ? closed
St. Thomas the Apostle, Rahway, NJ
Transfiguration, McKeesport, PA
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Moderator: Father Anthony, Fr. Deacon Lance, Fatherthomasloya
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