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#382315 - 06/29/12 05:12 PM
Re: Muslims stone Christians in Dearborn Michigan
[Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6913
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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I doubt that the Fathers had any opinion about the fate of Muslims since Islam did not exist when they were alive. John Damascene, generally considered the last of the Eastern Fathers, not only lived after the Muslim conquest, he lived under Muslim rule and wrote extensively about Islam. It was his position that Islam was the last and greatest of the Christological heresies.
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#382316 - 06/29/12 05:13 PM
Re: Muslims stone Christians in Dearborn Michigan
[Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6913
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Same sort of stuff happens in Brooklyn, NY without Arabs - there the Hasidic Jews are the ones who react akin to these Arabs. There was a little bit of that, but more often than not, it was the Hasidim being assaulted by black radicals (including Muslims), frequently goaded into violence by race hustlers like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. I was there, people.
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#382317 - 06/29/12 05:18 PM
Re: Muslims stone Christians in Dearborn Michigan
[Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6913
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Like Christians they come in all stripes. However, I have always found these people to be most courteous, honest and dare I say "christian" in their attitudes and interactions with me, something that is not necessarily always true with so called Christians. Do sixty percent of the Christians with whom you work believe that apostates should be put to death? Sixty percent of American and European Muslims do. Do the vast majority of Christians you know believe that women can and should be physically chastised for disobedience and immodesty? The vast majority of Muslims in America--including women--do. See this recent article from Mere Comments , the blog of Touchstone Magazine.
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#382351 - 06/30/12 03:43 AM
Re: Muslims stone Christians in Dearborn Michigan
[Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
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Member
Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 324
Loc: New York
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Irish Ruthenian:
I kind of hear you on the one hand, and I kind of don't, on the other hand.
I've never responded positively to an "in-your-face" approach to persuasion. Not to religion. Not to politics. Not to anything. And I'm sure I'm not unique in that regard. People don't enjoy being confronted and being put on the spot. It turns people off to whatever message you're trying to get across.
Would you stop for a street Scientologist who insisted you needed to take a free stress test (even if you had no religion)? No. You'd say "no thanks," and keep walking. Why? Because when you're walking down the street, you have an objective. You're going to lunch. You're going back to the office from lunch. You're going to the store. You're going to...do something. And now somebody is suddenly interrupting you with something that isn't remotely on your radar screen and which you haven't got time for. You're not going to stop. Same for a non-Catholic on the street if a Catholic approached him in the same way.
Back in the day when I was faithless and listless and "Christians" harangued me on the bus or on an airplane about having a personal relationship with Jesus, there was no doubt in my mind that those people did not speak for Jesus Christ. They were just a bunch of idiots. Same for the idiots who came knocking on my door. Same for the idiots who shoved literature into my hands at street festivals and told me to repent. Same for the idiots driving in front of me reducing Christianity to a clever catch phrase on a bumper sticker. None of them impressed me at all. Their approach, alone, told me everything I need to know about them.
On the other hand, when I would see an occasional religious in his or her habit quietly sitting in an airport or on a train I sensed something sacred. Seeing my grandmother say her prayers and make her devotions without imposing that on anyone else preached a greater sermon than the cleverest preacher shouting at me could have preached. When you see people like that, they attract. You're drawn to them because of their example. You respect them. And perhaps you see something in them that you don't find in yourself at the moment.
I think Catholics reach people just by being good Catholics, to be honest. They preach by their example. St. Francis said it best, "preach always; when necessary use words." I don't know if he used a semicolon or not, but the message is the same.
And, of course, we reach people by prayer, too. Now that I am a practicing Catholic again after many years away from the Faith, it's clear that all my grandmother's quiet, unobtrusive prayers were working.
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#382466 - 07/03/12 03:04 AM
Re: Muslims stone Christians in Dearborn Michigan
[Re: Roman Interloper]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/11
Posts: 98
Loc: Virginia USA
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Irish Ruthenian:
I kind of hear you on the one hand, and I kind of don't, on the other hand.
I've never responded positively to an "in-your-face" approach to persuasion. Not to religion. Not to politics. Not to anything. And I'm sure I'm not unique in that regard. People don't enjoy being confronted and being put on the spot. It turns people off to whatever message you're trying to get across.
Would you stop for a street Scientologist who insisted you needed to take a free stress test (even if you had no religion)? No. You'd say "no thanks," and keep walking. Why? Because when you're walking down the street, you have an objective. You're going to lunch. You're going back to the office from lunch. You're going to the store. You're going to...do something. And now somebody is suddenly interrupting you with something that isn't remotely on your radar screen and which you haven't got time for. You're not going to stop. Same for a non-Catholic on the street if a Catholic approached him in the same way.
Back in the day when I was faithless and listless and "Christians" harangued me on the bus or on an airplane about having a personal relationship with Jesus, there was no doubt in my mind that those people did not speak for Jesus Christ. They were just a bunch of idiots. Same for the idiots who came knocking on my door. Same for the idiots who shoved literature into my hands at street festivals and told me to repent. Same for the idiots driving in front of me reducing Christianity to a clever catch phrase on a bumper sticker. None of them impressed me at all. Their approach, alone, told me everything I need to know about them.
On the other hand, when I would see an occasional religious in his or her habit quietly sitting in an airport or on a train I sensed something sacred. Seeing my grandmother say her prayers and make her devotions without imposing that on anyone else preached a greater sermon than the cleverest preacher shouting at me could have preached. When you see people like that, they attract. You're drawn to them because of their example. You respect them. And perhaps you see something in them that you don't find in yourself at the moment.
I think Catholics reach people just by being good Catholics, to be honest. They preach by their example. St. Francis said it best, "preach always; when necessary use words." I don't know if he used a semicolon or not, but the message is the same.
And, of course, we reach people by prayer, too. Now that I am a practicing Catholic again after many years away from the Faith, it's clear that all my grandmother's quiet, unobtrusive prayers were working. My thoughts on evangelism would be more in line with being in the festival, enjoying the food, and looking for an opportunity to converse in a friendly way with a Muslim. My approach with Muslims has been to ask a question about their religion, even if I know the answer, then to to say something like "As Christians, we have a different view on this matter." in a nice way. Then guage the response of the person listening. If I see interest, I will press on. If I sense closing off, then I will take the conversation somewhere else ("Boy, this lamb is gooooood. Wonder if I can get the recipe?") That is far different than waving nasty signs insultin Mohammed in the faces of the Muslims. My point is that most Catholics don't care to do even that and don't care to even learn. As I said, somedays I get the sense that everyone has this unspoken idea that eventally all human beings will get to Heaven. I don't think the Early Fathers thought that way about pagans, nor did St. Paul think that way about his fellow Jews, for whom he endured much suffering to preach the Gospel.
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#382477 - 07/03/12 06:40 AM
Re: Muslims stone Christians in Dearborn Michigan
[Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
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Member
Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6316
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
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YES !!Irish_Ruthenian you said My thoughts on evangelism would be more in line with being in the festival, enjoying the food, and looking for an opportunity to converse in a friendly way with a Muslim. My approach with Muslims has been to ask a question about their religion, even if I know the answer, then to to say something like "As Christians, we have a different view on this matter." in a nice way. Then guage the response of the person listening. If I see interest, I will press on. If I sense closing off, then I will take the conversation somewhere else ("Boy, this lamb is gooooood. Wonder if I can get the recipe?")
That is far different than waving nasty signs insultin Mohammed in the faces of the Muslims. My point is that most Catholics don't care to do even that and don't care to even learn. As I said, somedays I get the sense that everyone has this unspoken idea that eventally all human beings will get to Heaven. I don't think the Early Fathers thought that way about pagans, nor did St. Paul think that way about his fellow Jews, for whom he endured much suffering to preach the Gospel. *applause* Honey attracts , the use of a huge plank of wood applied to the head, rhythmically and repeatedly, only causes pain and determination to avoid that pain , sadly often by force , which leads to pain and the determination to avo........... etc etc
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