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#384280 - 08/12/12 03:41 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: akemner]
smad0142 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/27/10
Posts: 22
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: akemner
I did notice that the Divine Liturgy is celebrated with fairly full rubrics, at least with the opening and closing of the doors and the use of the curtain.


From your quote I infer that is it permissible to use a more simplified, i.e. less rubrical, set of rubrics for the Celebration of the Divine Liturgy. Would that be a correct inference on my part? If so, how does a Priest know which rubrics can be omitted and which can not? Thanks!

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#384322 - 08/13/12 02:10 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: smad0142]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7399
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
If you are referring to the Holy Doors and curtain, there is a long-standing usage of leaving them open for most of the Divine Liturgy even in many Orthodox parishes. The Ordo Celebrationis essentially codified a later Synodal usage of opening and closing the doors and curtain at very specific times during the Liturgy.

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#384324 - 08/13/12 02:19 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: bkovacs]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6923
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Also remember, that in comparison with the obsessive rubricism of the Latin Church (which went so far as to specify how the Host was to be held at the fraction), Byzantine rubrics are rather sketchy and assume that the people who need already know most of what they have to do. Hence, my characterization of the archtypical Byzantine rubric:

"Going to the usual place at the specified time, the deacon bows three times and recites the customary prayers".

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#384325 - 08/13/12 02:23 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: Diak]
Chtec Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1967
Loc: Sharon/Hermitage, PA
Originally Posted By: Diak
Actually most traditional wooden Carpathian wooden village churches have fairly sparse iconography outside of the Altar.


I agree, but I'd also say there were various practices. Many wooden churches (whether in modern-day Slovakia, Ukraine or Romania) were decorated with floor-to-ceiling iconography in a folk style. Other churches utilized panel icons. The final choice probably depended on how much money the village could afford, or if there were iconographers nearby.

While there are some norms for iconography in a church, there are few hard-and-fast rules. Even the Great Church of Haghia Sophia was, originally, very limited in its iconographic scope; much of the wall space was covered with marble, carvings, etc.

Fr. David

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#384338 - 08/13/12 07:27 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: bkovacs]
Mike L. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 224
Loc: NE PA by way of AZ
I noticed that the Eucharistic Lamb was already cut into cubes prior to the calling down of the Holy Spirit (epiclesis). Is this normal practice in the UGCC? Or has the UGCC gone the way of the BCC and done way with Proskomede?

The Church is beautiful, BTW.

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#384340 - 08/13/12 08:01 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: Mike L.]
JimG Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 309
Loc: Texas USA
Our mission is BCC and our priest performs the traditional ritual for preparation of the Lamb on the Oblation table at each Divine Liturgy. This is also true of the other BCC parish I have a chance to attend occasionally. I don't think your understanding of BCC practice is very complete.

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#384343 - 08/13/12 08:22 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: JimG]
Mike L. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 224
Loc: NE PA by way of AZ
Glad to hear! Unfortunately, I think that your parish is in the minority among the BCC. Based on my own experience as well as the experience of a long time BCC priest.

Fr. David Petras sees this practice as "the most serious latinization...the use of pre-cut particles rather than the comminution of the ahnec (lamb) for Holy Communion." [url=http://www.davidpetras.com/page/response][/url] Source

Fr Petras writes:
Quote:
the custom of having individual pre-baked portions of communions (the wafers). Eastern Catholics found this more practical and began to cut the loaf ahead of time. Today, in some places, no effort is even made to keep the Communion for one liturgy from one and the same loaf, and I’ve even seen a couple of instances where the symbolic fraction has been omitted, and a bunch of particles dumped on the diskos and then distributed in Communion. I also saw one instance where the celebrant took four particles, symbolically held them together, and then let them fall back into four separate pieces.


See more background on this practice here: http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/of-prosphoras-and-pre-cut-pieces/

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#384344 - 08/13/12 08:47 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: Mike L.]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7399
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
Quote:
I noticed that the Eucharistic Lamb was already cut into cubes prior to the calling down of the Holy Spirit (epiclesis). Is this normal practice in the UGCC? Or has the UGCC gone the way of the BCC and done way with Proskomede?

The Church is beautiful, BTW.

Are you sure you are not seeing the commemorative particles and the "ranks" all together on the Diskos with the Lamb? I didn't see any evidence of "pre-cuts" in the photos. I also don't think Archpriest Daniel would sanction any use of "pre-cuts".

It is the custom in the UGCC to put all particles from the Diskos into the chalice together with the broken Lamb as is also prescribed in some pre-Nikonian sluzhebnyky. When Archpriest Daniel gave our Eparchial clergy conference he celebrated the full Proskomidia and broke the Lamb as prescribed in the Liturgikon.

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#384347 - 08/13/12 09:47 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: Diak]
Mike L. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 224
Loc: NE PA by way of AZ
Perhaps you are right deacon but I thought I saw uniformly cut cubes and no larger lamb. Could have be mistaken. Surely, you would now better on his usage. I am glad to hear that the UGCC has not did away with this theologically rich service.

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#384372 - 08/14/12 01:38 PM Re: This Parish I really like!. [Re: Mike L.]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7399
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
It is not unheard of to cut the commemoratives and even sometimes the ranks in square pieces at the Proskomidia while leaving the Panagia triangular, especially when there are many communicants.

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