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Re: Marriage East and West, CCC #1623 [Re: Filipe YTOL] #418344
06/24/18 09:51 AM
06/24/18 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by theophan
The Eastern tradition seems to take a stance about the Mysteries that is not as juridical as that of the West... And therein may be the reason for such a diversion of theological teaching about who is the minister of the Mystery of marriage and what is essential.


To some extent, even a considerable sense, yes. I gravitate to emphasizing the "harmonia" the "symphonia" between East and West; I do believe, passionately, it exists, more than the differences that do not divide. [see this link and link for context] But that is a different topic and thread. From the West I have always liked Pope St. Leo the Great: Quod itaque Redemptoris nostri conspicuum fuit, in sacramenta transivit --- That which was visible in our Redeemer has gone into the Sacraments. Sermon 74, 2, as found in Migne’s Patrologia Latina (PL) 54, 398. Quoted approvingly by Lossky, In the Image and Likeness of God, 104. Also quoted in CCC, §1115. Regarding conspicuum cf Zizioulas, Being as Communion, 138, linking the “sacramental” with the “iconic.”

My uneasiness, especially from the other thread and the involved discussion there is the extent to which current matrimonial canon law gives the, I hope mere appearance or incorrect impression, of detaching the sacrament of matrimony from the direct, implicit and necessary presence and involvement of the Church.

Re: Marriage East and West, CCC #1623 [Re: ajk] #418345
06/24/18 01:21 PM
06/24/18 01:21 PM
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Quote
My uneasiness, especially from the other thread and the involved discussion there is the extent to which current matrimonial canon law gives the, I hope mere appearance or incorrect impression, of detaching the sacrament of matrimony from the direct, implicit and necessary presence and involvement of the Church.


Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

ajk:

I share your uneasiness about separating the Mysteries from the Church, the keeper of the Mysteries. Pope Francis' recent comments about those living together being truly married as long as they have a commitment seems to bear out your uneasiness, as it does mine.

Let me add something I saw recently that is apart from this marriage discussion, but is slightly related.

I was watching a game show the other night and one contestant said he was a "celebrant," when asked what he did for a living. Now the National Funeral Directors Association has a program for people to be certified to do non-religious funeral ceremonies for those who have no religious affiliation--or for anyone else who does not wish to have their clergy involved (a growing trend; don't know why). Those trained also can officiate weddings in their state if they get the proper licensing.

What cause me to do a double take, however, was when the man said he did funerals, weddings, and baptisms when asked what a celebrant did. And it seems this is not an isolated thing.

So how is such a "baptism" a baptism? Pouring water on a child or immersing one into water with or without the Church's formula--how is that possible? It's a total detachment of the Mystery from the Church, the Guardian of the Mysteries.

I'd like some of our clergy members to weigh in with their thoughts.

Bob

Re: Marriage East and West, CCC #1623 [Re: theophan] #418346
06/24/18 02:51 PM
06/24/18 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by theophan
So how is such a "baptism" a baptism?
Interesting that you mention baptism; it is the connection to the minister of marriage issue that concerned me and I had almost mentioned it in my last post. That is, the Church can delegate with the understanding that it is the Church as the body of Christ that acts. Thus:

CCC
Quote
V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.59


Can this approach be applied to the question of the minister(s) of matrimony in a way that meets East-West sensibilities (even given that the above CCC would be an issue for the Orthodox). There is an expression that I can't recall -- something like, the Church provides what is lacking -- that though minimalist, gives at least a basis for exceptions to the norm.

This LINK is lengthy and detailed but it tries to consider every facet regarding intent. This is the typical western, dissecting, differentiating approach (I am myself a "God is in the details" guy who sees in scholasticism the seed that grows into the scientific method) but, I believe, it could have a place as a foundation for an eastern, integrating expression of mystical theology.

Re: Marriage East and West, CCC #1623 [Re: ajk] #418349
06/26/18 02:59 PM
06/26/18 02:59 PM
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ajk:

Christ is in our midst!!

You miss my point. The celebrant is not affiliated with any Church or ecclesial community. He/she may not even be Christian. This is an added "feel good" thing offered so that people who have no desire to be part of the Church or Christ can tell parents and grandparents that little Johnny or little Gloria has been baptized.

Re: Marriage East and West, CCC #1623 [Re: theophan] #418351
06/26/18 04:20 PM
06/26/18 04:20 PM
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He is and will be.
Originally Posted by theophan
You miss my point. The celebrant is not affiliated with any Church or ecclesial community. He/she may not even be Christian. This is an added "feel good" thing offered so that people who have no desire to be part of the Church or Christ can tell parents and grandparents that little Johnny or little Gloria has been baptized.
Bob, I think I may have gotten your point only too well. Read again the official pronouncement and interpretations that I quoted or linked. Anyone can baptized under special circumstances so ... is little Johnny or Gloria baptized? Read again RomCatholic's posts -- I think he laid out a plausible scenario of classical western Catholic understanding -- in the Ministers of Matrimony thread that he picked back up from 2008 in 2015. Who is/are the minister(s) of the sacrament of matrimony in East/West? How does this play out such that two Christians can be in a common law marriage that is held to be sacramental?

Last edited by ajk; 06/27/18 07:14 AM.
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