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The joke of it is that roughly the same people backing the ordination of priestesses are also anxious to abolish the Priesthood!

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
The joke of it is that roughly the same people backing the ordination of priestesses are also anxious to abolish the Priesthood!

Fr. Serge


Precisamente, Padre.

Had that discussion with somebody else recently. An argument given for the ordination of women is that Jesus didn't found a church and anyway the apostolic ministry is only functional, of human not divine origin for the good order of the church.

My friend correctly concluded that this paves the way for lay presidency at Communion. It's a Protestant view of the ministry.

Regarding 'why don't they just become Anglicans?' there are cultural and yes, social-class differences - many RCs don't like high churchmanship which even liberal Anglicans do. Essentially they want to re-create liberal Protestantism but in the form of their own historically immigrant, historically working-class culture (no judgement implied in those terms - they're only observations).

That and I suspect a number of them, like the women ordained by vagantes aboard riverboats, are more interested in 'making a statement' to spite the church of their birth than in ministering to a congregation.

Interestingly I came across a blogged article recently from an Andrew Bartus in which he contrasted the Catholic sacramentalist approach to religion with a Protestant 'knowledge-based' (bookish, private-judgemental) one.

I remarked after reading it that among ethnic born Orthodox, who usually are entirely sacramentalist, the question of women's ordination hardly ever comes up. Next to none are agitating to change the apostolic ministry for the sake of women's rights or keeping up with the times.

And that's great.

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YF,

Originally Posted by The young fogey
Interestingly I came across a blogged article recently from an Andrew Bartus in which he contrasted the Catholic sacramentalist approach to religion with a Protestant 'knowledge-based' (bookish, private-judgemental) one.

It has struck me that the Protestant approach, as you say, 'knowledge-based', is another word for 'gnosticism'. Because they rejected the Church as a visible sacramental institution, vested with magisterial authority, they have been forced logically to see the Church as an ethereal, spiritual reality. Thus, they can use the word 'Church' ("it's biblical", after all), but it actually has no real-world content. When they worship, they worship as congregations, not as the Church. Fr. Serge's remark about doing away with the priesthood entirely is right on the mark.

In my opinion, the Latin Church has tried to close the gap with the Protestants liturgically, especially in those countries where Protestantism was strong (in numbers), and in so doing, has 'gnosticized' a whole phalanx of Catholics. Thus the need for a 'reform of the reform'.

Originally Posted by The young fogey

I remarked after reading it that among ethnic born Orthodox, who usually are entirely sacramentalist, the question of women's ordination hardly ever comes up. Next to none are agitating to change the apostolic ministry for the sake of women's rights or keeping up with the times.

And that's great.

Yes it is.

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women priests? poll? hey you can make any poll you like and doctor it to say what you find convenient. it's part of the art of propaganda in order to further your agenda, why, just ask Dr. Goebbels (if you are into seances, that is).
I do have one question about females in the altar party: I have no objection to girls/women as servers, etc. I am not afraid that their horrible Yin energy will put a bad juju on things. but to the point:do nuns in convents serve in any capacity in an altar party? do they serve, whatever? if so, is there not a precedent set for females in the altar party?
as far as priests, no, but again, I see no problem if girls and women want to serve in the altar party.
Much Love,
Jonn

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Originally Posted by Michael McD
YF,

It has struck me that the Protestant approach, as you say, 'knowledge-based', is another word for 'gnosticism'.


Bartus said the same thing.

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Jonn,

In the old days, nuns did not serve at Mass. Either there was a male altar server, or everything was prepared ahead of time so that the priest didn't need one.

I don't know what the story is today. I would imagine it depends on the individuals involved.

Religious superiors can receive permissions to do things for good reasons that would not be ordinarily given otherwise. I have heard people speak of how Mother Teresa of Calcutta would sometimes open the tabernacle and place the ciborium on the altar so that she and her daughters could engage in Eucharistic Adoration. I am sure she was granted permission to do this by her ecclesiastical superior.

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Originally Posted by JonnNightwatcher
women priests? poll? hey you can make any poll you like and doctor it to say what you find convenient. it's part of the art of propaganda in order to further your agenda, why, just ask Dr. Goebbels (if you are into seances, that is).

Much Love,
Jonn


Godwin's Law.

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While the concept of female Priests sounds rather ridiculous, I will say that the Byzantine Church has had female Deacons in the past.

Maybe that is a Tradition that can come back again and this will give the ladies a more prominent role in our Churches.

This is only a thought however. I am not sure that what I am saying is correct, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

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From what I gather, the Deaconess was basically like today's active Roman Catholic nuns. The Martha aspect whereas the contemplative nuns perform the Mary aspect.

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"Interestingly I came across a blogged article recently from an Andrew Bartus in which he contrasted the Catholic sacramentalist approach to religion with a Protestant 'knowledge-based' (bookish, private-judgmental) one."

That latter approach to religion seems what those post-councilor theologians mean when they say "spirit of Vatican II".

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"The Martha aspect whereas the contemplative nuns perform the Mary aspect."

Interesting. The theological issue on which I would tack this whole debate is the validity of a woman priestess to consecrate the host. There are break-off groups that put into practice this idea, but when they lift the host it remains bread.

It's not a matter of preference or a positive law that can be changed. It is direction that came from Jesus Christ and the Apostles themselves, and is continued by the Holy Spirit when the reality of the bread is brought into eternity by becoming the reality of God.

On a personal note, that is why at my first communion two weeks ago I was solemn rather than joyful. I saw it as the beginning of the end to my selfishness, as I seek and am graced to do Godís will.

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Originally Posted by Michael McD
Jonn,

In the old days, nuns did not serve at Mass. Either there was a male altar server, or everything was prepared ahead of time so that the priest didn't need one.
.


Actually before the Council in women's monasteries, a nun would make the responses at Mass.

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Originally Posted by PrJ
I actually see this differently -- it says to me that young girls are being energized in their faith and want to serve Christ. . . . << SNIP >> But the news that girls want to serve Christ and His Church is awesome!


The fallacy here is that "serv[ing] Christ and His Church" necessarily entails liturgical service. I think that the singing of the Beatitudes at the start of our Divine Liturgy outlines many ways in which someone -- male and female -- can serve the Church without being in the sanctuary.

I do not oppose women serving at the altar as a matter of discipline: The bishop has the authority to allow or disallow the practice. But, it seems to me obvious that the situation could easily arise where a young altar-girl's assertive realization, "I can do that!" becomes a desiring, "I want to do that!" Then what does the God-loving bishop tell her? "Sorry, kid, become a nun."

Except, . . . the girl hasn't been pretending she's a nun. She's been pretending she's a sacred minister, like a deacon. And, like the deacon, I say to Holy Mother Church and our well-meaning bishops: Wisdom! Be attentive (to the message you're sending)!


Originally Posted by PrJ
To be honest, I get really tired of the "sky is falling" mentality that so often pious Christians can get trapped into -- not everything that happens is a sign or portent of "bad things" or that the Church is going down a bad path.


Well, okay, you have a point. That mentality can be tiresome.

But, if you've ever seen pictures of an "Altar Server Appreciation Day" at a cathedral, let me ask you what percentage of those young altar servers are now female? Has the approval of altar-girls attracted more young boys to serve Christ? . . . less? . . . about the same?


Originally Posted by PrJ
The Holy Spirit is still active in His Church and He is still calling people to Himself! The Church is alive with God's grace -- the gates of Hell will NEVER prevail against it. For those who have eyes to see, the signs of renewed life and the activity of God's grace are abundant and all around!


The Holy and life-giving Spirit never said anything about protecting the Church from making dumb decisions.

Sorry, I think that hopeful, enthusiastic -- and, frankly, blinkered -- vision of a "renewed" Church died with the opening of the first abortion clinic in the heart of the Eternal City during the reign of His Holiness Pope Paul. The times, they were a-changed . . . and, Europe has never looked back. (Look at Poland after John Paul; look at Mexico recently) The massive dissent from the Church on just about every issue and in just about every area has never subsided.

The Pope's ordaining of a few more Legionaries or Neo-Cats at St. Peter's doesn't change the incredible mess that Holy Mother Church will be confronting in the New Millenium.

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And, Christ our God said, "Peter, who love Me more than these, tend My sheep."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j..._22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

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Brian,

You are probably correct about the responses. There was a period when the "dialog" Latin Mass existed, especially in houses of religious, but also in some parishes, where the congregation would pray the responses.

What they would not do was to serve the wine and water, lift the chasuble, move the book, etc.

Thanks,
Michael

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