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Dear Friends,

Those who've read the few posts where I shared this will know that I belong to an Anglicanised denomination of the Syrian Church, but currently attend an Orthodox parish. I've felt for a long time that I should enter the Catholic Church, but recently have been wondering about just entering the Orthodox Church. Perhaps this question has been addressed before. Please humour me.

If the Catholics and the Orthodox split from each other, or from their unity in Christ, or however one is to describe the situation, what difference does it make if one is Catholic versus being Orthodox? In other words, is there any reason whatsoever that would make being Catholic a better position to be in than being Orthodox? I hesitate to start this thread on Holy Friday, but the subject of me entering either church came up yesterday, and my mom would like me to wait till I'm 21 (I'll be 20 in August) and then to make a decision. Up till recently I've thought only of being Catholic, but having since discovered this forum, and having seen the variety of opinions on this, I thought I would throw this one out now, since Orthodoxy has also been appealing. My mom isn't too much of anything over the change, as she's suspected it, but she doesn't see a year as much. I keep thinking of the many years I've been without the Eucharist or Confession, and how I'd love to enter either Church ASAP to avail myself of these holy mysteries. For her it doesn't seem to be a big deal. She also thinks my family (both sides) will not be thrilled by a longshot, so she wants me to be 21 to make it clear to them that it's my decision alone (one of the things with being Indian is that you're always a child, even when you're 20, and if you screw up, it's your parents' fault for raising you that way)...basically she doesn't want any trouble. Understandable. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone ever had a similar situation, and would share their experience and opinion. But in any case, I throw it to all of you, and can't wait till after Qyomto to read what you have to say.

God bless!

*Qyomto = Pascha, for the Syriac challenged.

My dearest Mor Ephrem,
I can quite sympathize with you and the burning desire for Holy Communion. We I entered the Latin Church many years ago the same was true for me.

Please take the following as purely personal opinion:

I would enter the Byzantine Catholic Church or as they are rightly called "Orthodox in Communion with the Apostolic See of Rome."
I am not trying to convert or prosletize you since you asked I merely offer a suggestion.

Through my prayer and study "I" see the necessity of Communion with the See of Rome"

Take that for what it is worth. I will be praying for you as you decide what to do.

Blessed Holy Friday.

Stephanos
Unworthy Monk and Arch sinner

Dear Mor Ephrem,

From the Catholic point of view, the Orthodox Churches offer all the Holy Mysteries and Tradition, with one exception, that of unity with Rome. From the Orthodox point of view, the Catholic Church is seen as having added some things to the faith without proper authority. Part of your discernment would have to include what you believe about the need for central authority in the Church and how well, or poorly, that autority has been applied.

I do think that you should look into a Byzantine or Melkite or even Ukrainian Catholic Church, just to find out what the Divine Liturgy is like.

There is a web page called "Unofficial Directory of Eastern Catholic Churches" or something like that that has address info for most EC churches. If you live in the northeast, there probably is a Church not too far away.

Also, your mother need not worry too much, although she will (mothers are like that} about your age, as most Catholic parishes have about a years worth of classes and activities before the new catechumens are formally welcomed. It is, after all, a big change and you should find a community in which you are comfortable and a Liturgical Style that you find helps you get closer to Jesus.

Also, there is a site called Mass Times which lists all the Catholic Churches in the US by city, but you would have to wade through all the RC parishes to find the Byzantine ones.

I will pray that your discernment will lead you closer to the Lord.

Have a Blessed Easter Season

John

Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Mor Ephrem:

Go Orthodox. You will have a lot less mental gymnastics to go through. Also, you will be able to be Syrian without apology; going Syrian-Malabar (or Malankara, I get these confused!) would mean severe latinization at this time.

The reality also is in the US, there are many more Syrian Orthodox Churches.

anastasios

Christos Anesti
Alithos Anesti

Al Masihu qam
Haq'qan qam

Dear Mor Ephrem,

Despite my constant interest in the Orthodox-Catholic split, I try to be a simple believer, as being born into my particular Church, never a convert or church-hopper, and raised in an exclusively Muslim country where I didn't have the luxury of worrying about Catholic-Orthodox differences, have all proven to provide me with the religious stability I needed. And, being someone who wasn't brought up in a Western culture that prides itself on individualism, I could never fathom how people could bring it upon themselves to embark on religious quests and actually convert from one faith to the next, or switch churches for any reason other than for selfish practical purposes like procuring a divorce that wasn't obtainable in one's initial church.

Therefore I, as a Melkite, can simply do no less than suggest in a spirit of simplicity that you become Catholic.

But I will state one other thing, and stress it to you very strongly. Remain Syriac, and don't change that alignment. I can tell from your posts that it is your identity and defines much of who you are. Do not abandon that tradition at all costs.

Anastasios but dutifully points out to you that one serious problem that still afflicts Eastern Catholic Churches to some degree, latinizations (but for how much longer, neither I nor, presumably, anyone else would have any idea). To become Catholic and a truly devoted Syrian (you should never allow compromises of your Rite in a Catholic church turn you into a lukewarm Syrian) means accepting a heavy cross and dealing with some possibly great difficulties (I would have no idea as to the degree of Latinizations in Catholics Churches of your particular kind of Syrian tradition). I pray that you have the grace to accept and take up such a cross.

In IC XC
Samer




[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 04-17-2001).]

Anastasios,

//Go Orthodox. You will have a lot less mental gymnastics to go through.//

Maybe for the lukewarm, but for those who are not riddled with a lack of identity there are no "mental gymnastics" to go through. Maybe for those in the seminary who are still trying to rationalize the need for the Filioque! Chuckle.

The mental gymnastics exist when we try to develop a hybrid tradition like Tatian did with the Gospels. The Church rejected it - at least most of the Church did. What is common is our Lord and Master of all. We have work to do - and it is not being deceivers or masters of confusion. We must preach Christ crucified and the Resurrection.

The lack of proper EDUCATION and LEADERSHIP in the Church is the culprit to our confusion. Period. What mental gymnastics will exist when both East and West DO unite? This problem will never be solved.

A forewarning: There is a simple test that business folks use to decide if they are wasting too much time. Look at the number of inter-office memos sent to the employees over the past year. If the majority of them are nitpicking notes about inter-office protocol and etiquette and not about getting new business then time was wasted. Kinda like spending time re-arranging the deck furniture on a sinking Titanic. There is need for protocol and etiquetee - it maintains order and a sense of respect ... BUT(!) ... If you ain't getting new business, more church doors will close. More liturgical museums. We do need LEADERSHIP like never before. Not the status quo or the same school of thought. We need to proclaim the message of the Gospel from the rooftops and quit contemplating our belly-buttons!

Joe




[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 04-17-2001).]

Dear Mor Ephrem,

Christ is Risen!

I agree with others who have posted here that you should make every effort to maintain your identity as a St Thomas Syriac Christian, because that is who you are!

As such, your real choice is between the Syriac Orthodox Church or Syriac Catholic Church.

If you should choose the latter, you should not worry about Latinizations etc. The recovery of the true Syriac tradition is an ongoing process in both Churches, actually. There will always be those who tend westward more than eastward and vice-versa. You are your own man - you always were and always will be.

God bless,

Alex

Dear Anastasios and others,

Thank you for your replies. But they raise a couple of questions for me.

1. Anastasios, you recommend me to "Go Orthodox". I've thought of that more in recent days. It is true there are more Orthodox churches, but I am in New York, where there are a lot of both. But that's just me going on a tangent. I forget if you are Catholic or Orthodox, but what role does or should the Petrine ministry play in all this? For someone has already suggested that that was the reason for his being Catholic. Does that ultimately not matter that much? (*as an aside, I seem to remember you saying you would be attending St. Vladimir's Seminary sometime in the proximate future. I live about fifteen-twenty minutes from there. It would be cool to speak to you of these things when you find yourself in Crestwood.)

2. Others recommend being Catholic, which has been something I've thought of as well, and for more time. Some say the latinisations, which annoy me more than anything else, shouldn't influence things, as they can change. Fine. Then my question basically is why would I be Catholic rather than Orthodox? What is it about the Petrine ministry that keeps the Catholics here Catholic rather than Orthodox? For I know there are Orthodox-minded Catholics out there, but no matter what, will stay Catholic. What role does the office of the Roman Pontiff play in that? I don't quite know how to put it better than that.

I thank you all again.

S

Dear More Ephrem,

I would concur very much that you keep at least your Syriac background. After all that is who you are as a person. I knew some Syrian people in my hometown. They went to the local Episcopalian Church. Unfortunately they were not very proud about being Syrian and seemed almost apologetic.

I guess what you have to do is decide if the Petrine Ministry as claimed by the Catholic Church is valid.( Is it here that the fullness of unity can be found?)

As you know from previous post that I was a former Lutheran who came into the Catholic Church (Latin) over 34 years ago. The reason I did this was because I found at least in the view of the Latin Fathers and some of the Eastern Fathers that this is the Church which presides in love.The Church that has always confessed the Faith.

Stephanos
Unworthy Monk and Archsinner

Mor Ephrem,

T'is difficult to choose between Mommy and Daddy as children of divorced parents. Bad place to be put in.

A Western Church without the East and the Eastern Church without the West ... NEITHER situation is perfect.

But the makeshift union with Eastern Catholics are at least a taste of First Millenium Christianity ... but with Second Millenium attachments. This is an imperfect union between two imperfect Churches.

Unfortunately, there has been too many examples of how not to get along as One. Lack of proper education and leadership allows the bullies to convince us to play by their rules. Not good. A sign of weakness and a lack of security.

Much of our problems would have never been if we had LEADERSHIP and proper DIRECTION. The union with Rome could have been (or still be) the envy of the Roman-less Churches. Yet the schisms in this country have always resulted in "Our People" leaving that union and not the other way around.

I still believe our situation CAN BE the envy of the Orthodox - if we had leaders with stomachs made of lead.


Joe


[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 04-17-2001).]

"I forget if you are Catholic or Orthodox, but what role does or should the Petrine ministry play in all this? For someone has already suggested that that was the reason for his being Catholic. Does that ultimately not matter that much?"

One way of thinking about this is that Rome explicitly acknowledges that Orthodoxy has (using Latin terms) "valid" orders and therefore a "valid" Eucharist, and other sacraments. That is, Catholicism officially teaches that Orthodoxy has Christ, in the sacraments and in the sacerdotal order of the Church. Looking at things from the perspective of Catholic teaching, if Orthodoxy does not follow the Roman teachings about the role of the Pope (among other things) but yet fully has Christ, how much do those teachings really matter? For is not the Eucharist *the* act, sine-qua-non, of the Church? Are the Roman claims, the rejection of which has not "cost" Orthodoxy grace, sacramentality or sanctification, really very important at all?

For Catholics, esp Roman Catholics, the Papacy *is* very important -- it's central. Pick up a Roman Catholic diocesan newspaper and give it a read to find out how central the Vatican is to Roman Catholicism. But yet what the RCC teaches about Orthodoxy indicates that these matters are not as important, even in their own eyes, as they claim them to be -- for if they were important on the level of "dogma", as they officially are claimed to be, it is totally schizophrenic to then assert that the Churches that reject that "dogma" nevertheless retain the fullness of grace, full sacramental life, full orders.


DISCLAIMER: I am an Eastern Orthodox, who was formerly a Catholic (cradle Roman).

Brendan

Brendan make a very valid point. I think as far as personal salvation or holiness goes, acceptance of the Petrine Ministry has little bearing. I think we Catholics might admit that its importance it to the Church -- its ability to evangelize the world and to insure the Church does not become captive to the limits of nation or culture. The question is not is belief in the Petrine claims more likely to lead oneself to salvation, but is it more to lead others.

K.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 04-17-2001).]

Dear Brendan,

Christ is Risen!

A remarkable post in reply to Mor Ephrem! You are helping us all reflect on our faith. In truth, you make me a better (Orthodox) Catholic!

God bless,

Alex

Alex --

Boucmunny Bockpece!

Brendan

Good point, Brendan. I have been wondering about this issue for a while. The Catholic Church does not recognize the Orthodox Church as part of the "true Church" because of the papacy. Yet, the Catholic church holds that Christ is truly present in the Orthodox church. Therefore, the Orthodox church is not part of the "true church" eventhough Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, etc? Uh, I still can't grasp the "logic" here.

BTW, the Catholic church teaches (dogma, I guess) that papal authority (as the Catholic church sees it) is necessary for salvation. Why, then, would the Catholic church include some Orthodox saints in their canon of saints? Boy, the road to Heaven is indeed quite complicated! I'll just stick to praying and receiving the Sacraments, thanks.

Regards,
Greg

DISCLAIMER: I am a Melkite Catholic (former Roman) and Orthodox wannabe who loves the Pope.