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Rather than asking, �Do I need to be in communion with Rome?� as if Rome is somehow more part of the universal Church than other Churches (I don�t lose sleep over whether or not I�m in communion with Constantinople), instead ask, �Can I believe that only the Orthodox (or the Syrian Churches) have grace and are truly the Church? Or, while including the East, is the Church bigger than the East?�

So if I believe that only the Orthodox have grace and constitute the Church, then I'd become Orthodox. But if I believed that the Church included the East, but not just the East alone, would that belief automatically make me a prospect for Catholicism, and thus knock out Orthodoxy as a choice? Because I believe the latter; namely, that East and West together form the Church, though now divided. Yet, does that belief make me "un-Orthodox"?

Let me add my amen to the friend of Wesley in this forum.

K.

>>>Let me add my amen to the friend of Wesley in this forum.<<<

Without his great hymns, there would be absolutely nothing worth singing in any contemporary RC hymnal.

>>>Let me add my amen to the friend of Wesley in this forum.<<<

>Without his great hymns, there would be absolutely nothing worth singing in any contemporary RC hymnal.<

Except all of the Latin hymns and there translations that music directors avoid like the plague. Must be because chant doesn't go well with the accoustic guitar (it WAS mandated by Vatican II, after all).

"So if I believe that only the Orthodox have grace and constitute the Church, then I'd become Orthodox. But if I believed that the Church included the East, but not just the East alone, would that belief automatically make me a prospect for Catholicism, and thus knock out Orthodoxy as a choice? Because I believe the latter; namely, that East and West together form the Church, though now divided. Yet, does that belief make me "un-Orthodox"?"

Mor Ephrem -- you really need to speak with priests from both jurisdictions.

Orthodoxy has never dogmatically said that the Western Church is a non-Church. What Orthodoxy *has* said is that there are errors there (from Orthodoxy's perspective). Some conclude from that statement of error, that the Western Church is a graceless non-Church. Others conclude that the Western Church is "Church" but less than fully so, and that only Orthodoxy has the fullness of grace and truth. Both of these views are Orthodox, because Orthodoxy has never definitively stated its view about the impact on the RCC of the errors of the RCC (again, according to Orthodoxy). Serge's point, I think, is that one needs to be comfortable with being in a Church where both of these views are permitted -- and in any case, all Orthodox believe that the fullness of grace and truth is in Orthodoxy.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

"In any case all Orthodox believe that the fullness of grace and truth is in Orthodoxy."

To the exclusion of the Western Church? It would seem to say that. But then again, both that view, and the view that the West is in one way or another deficient are accepted as Orthodox, only because there is no definitive statement.

A question, probably an old one: what are the errors that Orthodoxy sees in the RCC? if they can be listed succinctly. I know some of them, but if there's a complete, though simple list of these "errors", I think I could profit from it. Thanks for your help.

Dear Mor Ephrem,

"There is a lot of talk here about what you should do from this aspect or another. But sadly I see one question being unasked.
That is "what is the will of God for ME."
Not what "I" prefer or what "I" want, but what God wants for me."

Do i need to be in communion with Rome, as if
Rome is somehow more part of the universal Church than the other Churches?

No Rome is not more a part of the universal Church than the other Churches, but she is the pre eminent Church who presides in love.

I will go back to that Blessed servant of Jesus Christ,Irenaeus,who gave his life as a witness to the faith.
"For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church of Rome, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, in asmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those faithful men who exist everywhere."
and also Cyprian of Blessed memory,
"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from shcismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal Church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source;nor did they take thought that these are Romans, whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle and amog whom it is not posselbe for perfidy to have entrance."

I would expect that what was normative for the first 1000 years of Christianity is normative for today.

Stephanos
Unoworthy Monk and Arch sinner.

Mor Ephrem, Catholic or Orthodox? Both Churches have the sacraments and apostolicity. I repeat: "where will your soul grow?" The advice to 'talk to the priests of potential parishes' is a very good one.

Blessings!

Dan, although it may seem to be begging the question, my general response would be to ask the devout Protestant how he shows his love for God and how (and to whom) he shows his love of neighbor. If he inveighs against 'papists' and other idolaters, then I'd gently point out that his perspective is far from that mandated by Christ in the Scriptures. If he's one of those good-hearted 'welcoming' folks, then I'd clasp his hand, tell him I'm happy to be his fellow Christian, and then work like mad to make sure that we come ever closer to each other to further the spread of the Gospel and to serve the poor. Some of the most stiff-necked anti-Catholic Protestants cannot bring themselves to say a negative word about Mother Teresa. So, let's be like her, and not give anyone cause to hold anything against us because we express the love of God.

I know that this sounds like what are characterized as 'wussy ecumenists', but I truly believe that it is the self-less love of neighbor that will convert most anyone to the Gospel teaching. It's not the 'words'; it's the 'deeds'. Scriptural quotes don't go very far, for as Martin Luther pointed out: "Selbst der Teufel kann die Schrift" -- "The Devil himself can quote scripture".

Christ is Risen!

Mor Ephrem --

"To the exclusion of the Western Church? It would seem to say that. But then again, both that view, and the view that the West is in one way or another deficient are accepted as Orthodox, only because there is no definitive statement."

As I said, all Orthodox believe Orthodoxy is full, complete, true. Orthodox have different views about what exists outside of Orthodoxy (ranging from graceless to graced but not fully true) -- but virtually noone believes that it is as full, complete and true as Orthodoxy. Does that answer your question?

"A question, probably an old one: what are the errors that Orthodoxy sees in the RCC? if they can be listed succinctly. I know some of them, but if there's a complete, though simple list of these "errors", I think I could profit from it. Thanks for your help."

1. Filioque because (1) added to the Creed unilaterally and (2) believed to be misleading and/or doctrinally incorrect.

2. Pastor Aeternus (the idea that the Pope enjoys supreme universal jurisdiction and personal ex cathedra infallibility as a divine right). The issue of differing views on the nature and extent of Roman Papal authority dates to the initial separation, but Pastor Aeternus elevated these issues from (arguably) administrative matters to dogmatical matters.

3. A host of other things that could potentially be acceptable to Orthodoxy if understood as simply Western doctrinal theories and not universal dogmas, including, most notably: (a) immaculate conception (because dogmatizes a view of original sin that Orthodoxy does not accept), (b) Purgatory and Indulgences.

Brendan



[This message has been edited by Brendan (edited 05-01-2001).]

Dear Catholicos Mor Ephrem,

I think Dr. John is right(once again, Lord, how does he stay so humble . . .).

Whatever Church you choose, it should be accessible to you for regular Liturgy and the Sacraments etc.

Spiritual growth in Christ and the Holy Trinity is the number one priority in all our lives (or should be).

Your Syriac tradition is also a most important and integral part of your spirituality - it is your spirituality!

It is easy for me who has parishes galore where I live to talk about this, it would never be an issue unless I decided to pursue my dream and live in New Orleans.

You could be an avidly practicing Syriac Catholic, even while being a member of a Byzantine Catholic parish, as you well know.

At least you would be in the same "Eastern camp" so to speak and should belonging to a Syriac Orthodox Church prove difficult.

Or should you choose to become Orthodox "in communion with Brendan and Bob" , the OCA is a Church that is probably one of the most culturall adaptable Communions ever.

I know Ukrainians who belong to the OCA and their membership in this jurisdiction in no way impedes the fullest possible expression of their cultural heritage.

The same is doubtless true of others belonging to this dynamic jurisdiction. Or else you might consider the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

But visiting these Churches during their Liturgies and meeting their priests is a crucial aspect to all this, as Dr. John has also said.

God is good and He will guide you, Servant of Christ!

Alex

STOP THE TAPE!!!!!

I am totally confused I thought that this is a Catholic website. How can a good Catholic recommend another person to become Orthodox? This is something I would do, as not being an ultramontane Catholic.

Doesn't the Catholic church teach that obedience to the Catholic church is necesary for salvation? As an obedient Catholic, how can someone recommend another Catholic to jump ship?

I guess I don't understand this teaching of the Church. Please enlighten me.

Greg

Dear Greg,

If you are referring to me, I am not recommending that anyone become anything.

Mor Ephrem is considering leaving his Mar Thomas Church and is wondering about the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

I would love to have him as a member of the Byzantine CATHOLIC Church or as a member of the Syriac CATHOLIC Church where he could practice his Syriac spirituality.

I have met those who are considering conversion to Orthodoxy. That is there business and my comments to Mor Ephrem in this regard were simply with respect to the cultural/ritual aspects.

Personally, and as a CATHOLIC, the Orthodox Church is a Sister Church and I no longer turn red at the thought of sharing space on the bus beside an Orthodox Christian .

If Mor Ephrem or anyone should choose to become Orthodox, I believe that that too is part of God's guidance and providence.

As Brendan can attest, I have never once sent him a private e-mail to try and get him to come back to the True Church .

I don't tell people to join this or that Church. What if they listen to me and then I'll have them on my conscience?

God bless you, Servant of Christ and thank you for keeping me on my toes,

Alex

>>>How can a good Catholic recommend another person to become Orthodox?<<<

I do it all the time. Since both the Catholic communion and the Orthodox communion are integral parts of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and since each therefore possesses the fullness of the Christian faith, the main question is not one of ecclesial affiliation, but of where the individual Christian person can best grow in faith and spiritual development. In some cases, a person is quite obviously better off in the Orthodox communion, and if he asks me, I will say, "Go with God, and peace unto you". Sometimes it works the other way. The story of Abba Dositheus and the wheel is appropos here:

Abba Dositheus brought his disciples together and drew a wagon wheel on the ground. We are all standing on the rim of the wheel, while Christ is at the hub of the wheel. The individual spokes of the wheel represent our individual paths to salvation and unity with Christ. As we move closer to Christ, we must move closer to each other. If you will not move closer to your brother, you cannot move closer to Christ.

You could be an avidly practicing Syriac Catholic, even while being a member of a Byzantine Catholic parish, as you well know.

At least you would be in the same "Eastern camp" so to speak and should belonging to a Syriac Orthodox Church prove difficult.

Or should you choose to become Orthodox "in communion with Brendan and Bob" , the OCA is a Church that is probably one of the most culturall adaptable Communions ever.

I know Ukrainians who belong to the OCA and their membership in this jurisdiction in no way impedes the fullest possible expression of their cultural heritage.

The same is doubtless true of others belonging to this dynamic jurisdiction. Or else you might consider the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Dear Alex,

This sounds interesting, but I have a concern to be raised. How could one be an avidly practicing Syriac Catholic while belonging to a Byzantine Catholic Church? It has been said, if I'm not mistaken, that to belong to a Church is to embrace all its patrimony and adopt it as one's own. So how could one live one patrimony and worship (liturgically) consistently in another? It looks like one or the other will be diminished. Could you please explain how the two could be reconciled?

I believe there is no shortage of Syrian Orthodox or Catholic churches in New York, where I live, so I don't think becoming Byzantine is the very first thing I'd jump at (no offence is meant by this, of course), but it is, nevertheless, an interesting option.

At any rate, I do plan on discussing this with priests on both sides. My mom kinda angrily ordered me to not "do anything drastic" before I'm 21, so I suppose with the remaining year, I'll have time enough to talk to them.