www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Heresy?

BA, you are coming across as something of an extremist - or an iconoclast, an extreme that has been condemned by both East and West. If you don't like the artistic representations that artists use to depict that which cannot be portrayed, what would you suggest the artists use? Blank canvas would not depict much of anything. God the Father, the Holy Spirit, as well as, the angels are without physical form. Any way they are depicted is not what they actually look like, nor could it be. I don't know what else to say, except I hope you don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out. Well, I shouldn't say that. Extremists often don't have much of a sense of humor, either.

Isn't it a little late to be bringing this up? I don't think the artist can make any changes NOW - though you can give it a try if you like. Let us know what he says.

> By the way, when you say the Fathers' eyes
> reappeared do you mean they were rewritten or
> that it was miraculous?

No. Sorry for the ambiguity! I wrote "And all [the prohibitions] have been quickly disregarded ......... And soon again, the Father reappeared." intending to mean that the prohibitions (even the eye plucking) were soon forgotten, the Father being written on new icons as an Old Man.

Photius

The artwork in the Sistine Chapel is merely symbolism. The Christ seen behind the altar is not the traditional, bearded Christ, but a representation in non-religious (as in not icons, not that it isn't related to religion) artwork. Icons show clouds above Christ and the Dove during His baptism, but God the Father is not a cloud, that was merely how He was symbolized to us on Earth. Likewise, the old man image is used to represent someone wiser than those He was creating. Age and wisdom tend to go hand-in-hand symbolically, for obvious reasons. Symbolism isn't a heresy, just don't worship it. Worship God.

Exactly! And when you start judging art, it has to be considered in the time and culture that produced it. Otherwise you end up with the Taliban blowing up priceless images because they are no longer considered correct. Iconoclasm is not restricted to Christianity. Much of our Christian art is, as you say, symbolic and quite valuable as aids to devotion.

Oh, dear. I was about to say "Farewell to the Apprentice", but that seems to be a bit early. Surely, though, an apprentice should be willing to learn?

I'm with Photius - I wouldn't be responsible for installing such an icon, but neither would I show it irreverence, throw it away, or otherwise defile it.

The Russian Old Ritualists make good use of this icon - and they are known for their well-placed zealotry.

The notion that there is some significance to using the verb "write" instead of the verb "paint" with reference to icons is a linguistic absurdity; it means nothing except that Greek and Russian express things with one verb that other languages express somewhat differently. To borrow a line from Father Bob Taft, does anyone thing that a photographer "writes" his photographs?

Meanwhile, if the Apprentice wishes to nit-pick he should beware of nitpickers like myself, who are apt to do things such as inviting him to learn how to spell "fresco" correctly.

Incognitus

Dear Friends,

The depiction of God the Father as an "old man" was certainly forbidden in the Orthodox Church - as is the depiction of Christ as an actual "lamb."

Other rules are that the Cross of Christ was be inscripted with the letters "IC XC" to indicate it is a Cross of Christ and not that of someone else . . .

Pictures and icons of Christ the Son of God were frequently made, albeit in primitive form, from the earliest days of Christianity.

The people who were preached to by the Apostles and their successors often wanted to know what Christ looked like and so the need to have some sort of representation of Him - the practice of carrying such images persists to this day among the Ethiopian priest-missionaries.

To believe in an Incarnate God means that He can be seen and we want to see Him - that is why He became Incarnate for us as the Gospels say, "What we have seen . . ."

And who sees Christ, sees the Father, to be sure!

Alex

I highly recommend the book "The Poetry of John Paul II - Roman Triptych - Meditations" which contains his meditation on Michaelangelo`s beautiful work in the Sistine Chapel. After the three meditations, one finds the presentation of the book written in March 2003 by ... Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.

This work takes on added significance at this time as Pope John Paul II, in the second meditation, reflected on his own mortality and the conclave which would meet to elect his successor.

This small book of poetry (40 pages in length) continues to give me food for meditation and prayer.

Peace,

Charles

"The only problem I think Catholicism has is that they put too much stock in "faith and reason" which is good but it is also wrong. Its kinda like telling a lie then trying to justify it. It is clearly wrong."
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I come from another side. I would love to see my brethren show a little faith and reason, rather than following their negative 'passions'.

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As for the Holy Spirit being depicted as a dove, I believe that's how the saints have seen Him.

Zenovia

When my house blessed by at Theophany by an Orthodox priest, I had set out a nice print of an 18th century icon of the Baptism of Our Lord Icon from the collection of the Valamo Monastery. He grimaced momentarily when looking at this icon which prominently features God the Father depicted as an old man in the heavens above the baptized Christ. But only momentarily. It was in a 2005 Calendar of Icons from Conciliar Press, which the same priest had given to me as a gift.

Not to mention the fact that Scripture actually describes the Holy Spirit as resembling a dove!

Matthew 3:16 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.

Mark 1:10 - And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him.

Luke 3:22 - And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

John 1:32 - And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

At Theophany we proclaim in song:

Remember a good while back there was a discussion about tabernacles ?

I seem to have a recollection of the fact that some tabernacles were hanging/suspended ones in the form of a dove.

This seems to link in here as well.

Or am I wildly off the mark as often happens ?

Anhelyna

Anhelyna,

These are the two threads to which you referred:

Tabernacles

and


Dove Shaped Tabernacles

Many years,

Neil

In every Othodox Church I have been in (and that's hundreds, maybe a couple thousand), if there is an Artophorion, it is shaped like a Temple (Chuch Building) and sits in the center of the east side of the Holy Table.

Given how very widespeard this custom is, I can not help to suspect that anything else is a borrowing from the Latins or elsewhere, and is not an Authentic Byzantine custom.

Photius, Reader