www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Crusades

I heartily thank everyone for their responses, especially Father Thomas.

I have further questions about the thread topic:

--Do Easterners simply mean the fourth "crusade" when they say "the Crusades"? This would present a severe semantic barrier because in the West the 4th crusade is not really considered a Crusade at all (cf. Hilaire Belloc The Crusades, Jonathan Riley-Smith, Warren Carroll, et alii).

When we think of the Crusades we think of Baldwin IV, the 17 year-old leper king, who defeated a thousands-strong Muslim army with 600 famished men, saving Christian Palestine. We think of all those who actually reconquered Palestine for the Byzantine Emperor.

Keep the discussion going, though.

I also have a question for Bob Orthoman:

How can you spit on Pope John Paul II's apology for things that weren't his fault anyway, when your Patriarchs never apologize for anything? You'd better be glad that we evil, terrible Latins seem to be so much less retentive of grudges than you! The EP is not apologizing for the 12th-century massacres of Venetians, and we are not asking him to. The MP is not apologizing for stealing Churches like Cromwell, and we are not even asking for most of the Churches back!!! He thinks he's doing us a favor if he allows one Catholic priest in Russia to minister to the Catholics there in a freezing cold shed!!!!!!


LatinTrad

post edited slightly

I'm sure *every* Catholic, Eastern or Western, would like to see things run a bit differently. That's nothing new, though.

Again, what you may see as a good thing (the other crusades) I think popular thought does not look kindly on them. If you were to ask people, "were the crusades a good thing?" I don't think you would receive a positive response. Religion and military power has never been a good mix in retrospect.

Shlomo (Peace in Aramaic) Fr. Thomas,
You state: "[w]hile in Orthodoxy, from the very beginning, it has been nothing but persecution and weakness." Father, that statement is not totally true, during the time that the Eastern Roman Empire existed, the Orthodox Church used the power of the state to supress, and persecute other Christians. When you state that Roman suffering "pales in comparision to Orthodox suffering." That may be true, but that does not speak to the suffering that the Copts, Syriacs, and Maronites suffered at the hands, and betrails by the Byzantines. Because of the actions of the Byzantines we were made to suffer under Islam.

The reason that the Byzantine Empire fell to Islam is that the Christians within the Empire felt that it was better to live under Muslim rule where they would be free to worship, as opposed to Byzantine Rule where they were persecuted and murdered.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

You are correct, Yuhannon. I stand corrected. These are things that should never have happened, and the so-called Oriental Christians are too easily dismissed. My sincerest apologies.

Thank you, Father.

I am learning much from your posts.

The Eastern view of the Crusades is new to me.

I had a Ruthenian friend in college who would josh us about the Crusades, but even he had an overall positive view of the Crusader kingdoms in Palestine--he saw them as the bulwark that protected the Theotokos's own city (Constantinople) from the Muslims.

Just FYI, RC's (even "triumphalists") who know history, speak of Constantinople with reverence to rival that of the Greek Orthodox--they view 1204 and 1453 as horrific sacriledges. I encourage all to read the moving account of the 1204 sack in Warren Carroll's The Triumph of Christendom.

LatinTrad

"To Thee the Champion Leader do I offer thanks of victory!"

I think the similar sentiment is shared about Torquemada. In Spain, he is a hero, yes? But much of the world sees him as rather monstrous, no?

That's Blessed Torquemada to you!

Just to reiterate--while many in the West love the "other" Crusades (which we call simply "The Crusades"), I have never met anyone, in my life, who likes the sack of Constantinople.

Warren Carroll's account of it will move you to tears. It calls to mind the Lamentations of Jeremiah.


LatinTrad

"Quomodo sedet sola civitas plena populo? . . . omnes portae ejus destructae . . ."

Personally, I wish the Orthodox would just forget about what happened in 1204, and instead raise their voices in righteous anger over the way the West (the United States in particular) has consistently sided with Islam in it's campaigns of terror against Orthodox Christians in the last 40 years. 1204 was a tragedy and a disgrace on a grand scale, but where are the voices speaking out against the anti-Orthodox outrages committed in Cyprus, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia and Nagorno-Karabakh.

I believe I know what Lawrence is referring to "anti-Orthodox outrages" in Kosovo and Bosnia-Hercegovina, but am ignorant on Cyprus, Macedonia and Nagorno-Karabakh. I know some of the political history, but how is division of Cyprus, the international refusal to recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as part of Armenia, and I-do-not-know in Macedonia "anti-Orthodox"? Frankly, I am perplexed how the actions NATO and the UN took in Kosovo and Bosnia-Hercegovina could be considered "anti-Orthodox" as well. Neither group, particularly the latter, is known for being friendly to any faith tradition.

Johan

In regards to Cyprus, in 1974, the armed forces of NATO member Turkey invaded the island and committed some of the worst atrocities seen in Europe since WW2. Around 7000 Orthodox Cypriot civilians were murdered (out of a population around 600,000), over 1000 women were raped, 200,000 were made refugees, countless thousands were tortured, and around 60 Orthodox Churches were destroyed. When it was over, A Turkish Cypriot population that made up 18 pct of the island was in control of 40 pct of the land mass, and to this day the United States has turned a blind eye to this holocaust, while remaining blatantly Pro-Turkish.

In 1963-64, Turkish forces were also active on the island, using napalm and high exploses on Cypriot villagers. If you're interested in learning more about this tragedy, I suggest you read "Cyprus" by Christopher Hitchens.

As for Kosovo, over 100 Orthodox Churches and Monasteries have been destroyed, and countless cemeteries vandalised by CIA sponsored KLA terrorists, since NATO became involved. The same group is also now active in Macedonia, where additional Orthodox Churches have been attacked, and a further 18 Orthodox Churches were destroyed in the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999. So much for that precision bombing we keep hearing about.

The reason I mentioned Nagorno-Karabakh as an outrage, is because it's a situation that needs to be viewed in tandem with the situation in Kosovo. A region that becomes predominantly Moslem through terror tactics is deserving of independence in the eyes of the world, but a region that fights to remain Christian is not.

Dear Latin Trad,

Don't let yourself get sucked into polemics my Latin brother!

As much as you can,just try to ignore the inflammatory comments of some, and know that we don't all feel the same way!

I love you all in Christ,
Alice

A few posts back someone said that no one likes the sack of Constantinople. That is not quite true. A RC writer named Crocker, author of a popular church history called "Triumph", recently stated in Crisis magazine that the sack of C'pole should be observed as a holy day. When outraged readers wrote in to protest he said that he was only joking. Ha ha.
I wrote that that is akin to saying "I'm going to rape your wife"
and then saying "hey I was only joking" when you get angry.
OF course atrocities are not unique to the West, and certain Westerners resent being demonized. There is plenty of sin to go around. No one has a monopoly on atrocities; look at the current situation in the Holy Land...
We can point fingers forever, justifying our own sins by protesting the sins of others. At least the Holy Father has taken the initiative, without waiting for the repentence of others who have committed injustices to Catholics, to publicly express sorrow for sins committed by Catholics. Some Catholics, like Mr Crocker [are you ever struck by the utter aptness of names?] resent this but it seems obvious to me which approach is more humble and Christlike.

Latin-Trad,

With all due respect...Warren Caroll is anti-Eastern Catholic.

Well, at least he is to me. I PERSONALLY do NOT have any respect for him as he doesn't respect the Eastern Catholics enough.

He only wants to stick by history that he wants to believe in.

History is usually written at BOTH sides of everything. Warren Carroll chose to use only ONE side of the story.

I would not recommend any of his work or his books on history at all. He is not only ignorant but a bigot.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine