www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Traditionalist RC Periodical Blasts Orthodoxy

Dear All,

The Pope has apologized for such as this.

Hopefully the day will come that such hatred and lack of charity will be a bygone thing among us all. Sadly and clearly, that day is not today!

I believe that most members of the Roman Church, at least those who have any sense of Church history or of what the Pope has asked us to do, do not think the way that this self-styled traditionist does.

Certainly those of us who post here do not.

I feel embarassment and sorrow that such misinformation is written and published. This is not what we are taught to think or write. We are taught to respect the work of God especially as He works it in our Sister Chruches.

As you know, I love my Church and I am proud of her. I regret the evil done by some of my brothers and sisters as cited above.

The horror is that persons engaged in such behavior do it using the name of the Church of which they are members. They use that name to provide cover for their personal or communal religious xenophobia. They give lie to the command to love one another as Christ has loved us.

Steve

Sadly I must agree with you 100%

And I would venture to say that Mister Crocker does not at all care about the Pontiffs' position on the Eastern Churches or any number of other things the Pope has taken a position on.

I have never heard of this guy before and I don't think that the opinions he expressed are very common. This man is undoing the work of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know if this guy is a Feeneyite or SSPX or something along that line but he's a genuine disgrace to the church. Something like a religious jingo/Fascist.

I think we must try to remember that this is the work of a very poorly informed and angry individual.

While most trad-Lats are very innocent and sincere Christians who yearn for majesty and reverence in their church some see Latin traditionalism as a rallying point for any number of seriously deformed opinions and they may be dragging a multitude of nostalgic, spiritually hungry people down with them.

Michael, shocked and embarassed

You mention ZENIT (or what you quoted did). I have been there a bunch of times and they do not seem too fussy about what they "print". They are certainly not the "voice of the Vatican".

For example - a little bit back - they printed a letter (or whatever) from the French bishops - which advised people who just feel that they just must have sex to use condoms.

Any RC knows that the Vatican has certainly not approved that.

Europe, it seems, has become a buffet for cafeteria Catholics... and American bishops and priest - grasped in Anti-war hysteria - have also strayed some.

Apparently - these people are getting thier "voice of the Vatican" from Catholic publications and do not check with the Vatican itself.

As for Mr. Cocker - well - he just seems to represent so many Catolic thinkers who certainly do thier own thing - without regard to the mind and spirit of the Vatican.

Hi Steve - I too am RC, and I would guess, that just like me, you pick your Catholic priest carefully.

It seems to me, that somewhere along the line, some (but not all) seminaries churned out 'social workers' and forgot to instill personal spiritual growth through prayer. Something like that anyway. Who knows???

I would also guess, that just like me, you have found that if you want to know what the Catholic church teaches - you have got to dig for it and pin yourself directly to the Vatican.

Prehaps I was too disgusted, but I missed the part re: The sacking of Byzantium.

The Pope Innocent III excommunicated all involved in that terrible event, so would Mr. Crocker have us celebrate the 'feast' of a bunch of murdering excommunicates??

I fail to see any difference between Mr. Crocker's position and, for example, advocating the canonization of Margaret Sanger.

Pray for him, and those like him; That they might be given eyes that see beauty, ears that hear truth and a mouth that speaks praise.

-Brendan

I hope that some of you could find it in your heart to express your displeasure, esepcially from an Eastern Catholic POV, directly to the publishers of the magazine. "The Latin Mass" contact information listed at http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/contact.asp is as follows:

Letters to the editor/article ideas should be emailed to:

JWBlewett@msn.com

Letters to the editor/article ideas can also be addressed to:

The Latin Mass
50 So. Franklin Turnpike, Suite 1
Ramsey, NJ 07446-2546, USA
Phone = 201-327-5900
Fax = 201-327-7618

Any comments, questions, etc.. can be sent to latinmassmagazine@hotmail.com

Priest Thomas

In the Fall 2002 issue of “The Latin Mass,” ... The review was written by H.W. Crocker III, author most recently of “Triumph: The Power and Glory of the Catholic Church.”

Joe: Doesn't this say it all?

Is Crocker a well-respected journalist / historian / apologist? Is this to be dismissed as foolishness, the stuff of fanatics and fundamentalists?

Joe: I think you answered your own questions. He is a convert from the Anglican Church.

Crocker writes:

“As Newman might have said, but didn't, "To be deep in history is to realize that the Eastern Orthodox are crazy.' They are now, they were then, and they always have been.”

Joe: "MIGHT" have said, but DIDN'T." What exactly is Crocked quoting if it was never said?

“Wherever you find Eastern Orthodox, there you will find people who live not by the words of Jesus – "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who trespass against,' words admirably embodied by Pope John Paull II

Joe: I like many of the things that Pope John Paull(sic) II wrote about Eastern Christianity. Does he mention those in his review?

– but by the grudge and the "narcissism of small differences,' to use Freud's apposite phase (sic).

Joe: Like the "Latin Mass" crowd?

In their surly defensiveness, hatred, and envy of the West, the Eastern Orthodox are the Islamicists of the Christian world.

Joe: How does being an "Islamicist of the Christian world" tie in with being "defensive," hating and envious of the West? Does he give go into details here? If he wants to discuss the problem of iconoclasm, he doesn't have to look further than his own backyard. Why use a term that is offensive to Eastern Christianity - given their history of tears?

The West offers the the hand of friendship, the East responds with intemperance, abuse, and fear.”

Joe: I only have to reflect on how intemperance, abuse, and fear were the welcoming signs from Latin bishops and clergy when Eastern Catholics first came to this country. Remember the likes of John Ireland, the Apostle of Orthodoxy?

“For readers who are dyspeptic, antiquarian, nationalist, cranky, bearded fanatics, it [Solovyev's book] might even offer inspiration to join the Eastern Orthodox.

Joe: Most of our new parishioners are former Latins who found a spiritual home in our community because of the honest-felt fellowship.

But if you, like me, yearn for the Sack of Byzantium to become a feast day of the Church,

Joe: This guy is truly a sick puppy. Will he, in turn, also "yearn" to have the enthronement of a prostitute on Notre Dame's altar as a feastday too?

and feel wistful when you muse on that one brief moment when there was a French-speaking Catholic Crusader kingdom there, this book will be a pleasure and confirmation.”

Joe: Brrrrrrr. "Wistful" means "melancholy yearning." Maybe he can write a commentary of the Latin bishops' 1893 statement on Eastern Catholics. This seems to be up his alley of wistfulness.

Seems to me that Mr. Crocker is guilty of exactly that of which he accuses the Orthodox: a severe lack of charity.

Joe: I agree. I can't wait until he writes a review on anything the Pope wrote on Eastern Christianity. Has someone contacted his bishop?

- - - - - - -

Regarding his book, "Triumph":

Ryan McMaken states in his review:

"Crocker has no problem with generously employing stereotypes to dismiss Italians as hot-headed anarchists, Byzantines as effeminate bureaucrats, and Jesuits as heroic dragon-slayers."

From Raymond Arroyo of EWTN:

“A biting, unapologetic romp through Catholic history that debunks some long held myths and celebrates the glory of the Catholic faith. A much needed Triumph.”

Sean Hannity of Fox News:

"This is rock solid history–delivered with a rock solid punch–and is the most essential Catholic book since The Catechism of the Catholic Church (though it's a lot more fun to read). Buy it and enjoy."

An anonymous book reviewer:

"Crocker goes on to correctly point out that the sweeping reforms of Vatican II were essentially part of a process of dumbing down traditions in favor of appeasing a broader spectrum of laypersons."

***This is a book that might sit well on my shelf next to Steve Ray's "Upon This Rock."

From Publishers Weekly:

"In discrediting Luther and his purposes, Crocker dredges up a multitude of the reformer's personal flaws, calling him an "ill-tempered, unbalanced, and unhappy monk." "

In CRISIS magazine (May 2002) George Sim Johnston writes in his review of Triumph:

"Crocker starts with Christ's public ministry and ends with the pontificate of John Paul II. He is particularly good on watersheds like the Orthodox schism and the Reformation. His attitude does not always conform to current political etiquette, but that is part of the fun. For example, he is very hard on the Eastern Orthodox, arguing that the East has always been a swamp of subtle heresies and politically submissive patriarchs. "The bluff, hardy, straightforward, and theologically stable Roman-Catholic-Germanic culture of the West," Crocker writes, "had little in common with Byzantium." Watching the displays of vituperation from the Orthodox rank-and-file whenever John Paul II makes the slightest overtures, one concludes that Crocker's read on the Orthodox is unfortunately correct, although !perhaps the less said about this in mixed company, the better."

Another anonymous book reviewer:

"Mr. Crocker isn't an historian. I'm not sure just what his specialty is, but it isn't history. The book focuses on the development of the Church as a social institution, with little attention paid to its inner being and meaning and mode of life; and his open contempt of the Eastern churches and all things not northern European grated on me. When I found the Orthodox episcopacy described as "lickspittle bishops", in a book purporting to be history, I closed it for good."

In Jeffrey Rubin's interview with H.W. Crocker III, HWCIII states:

"In the book, I refer to the Dark Age newly Catholic tribes as “Bikers for the Bishop of Rome.” I find them much better company than the perfervid, oft-schismatic Eastern church."

Also again:

"The Church, to its credit, has never tried to deny bloody history – it doesn't opt out of history the way Protestantism does; and it doesn't nurture historical grudges like the Eastern Orthodox."

But H.W. Crocker III does state this in his Triumph book:

"The creed of the Mohammedans would be the most dangerous religious movement to afflict Christianity until the time of Luther. Like later Reformation Prostestants, the Prophet Mohammed preached a simple, rational religion. It was a religion of the book - of the Koran, It was a religion of direct communication with God in set daily prayer. It dismissed the saceredotal hierarchy of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity."

How would this compare with his alleged charge that the EO are Islamicists of Christianity?

" "Inculturation" means that if you're an African Catholic, it makes sense for you to include the sacrificing of chickens at Mass. I kid you not. A "Catholic" archbishop of Africa seriously proposed this because certain African communities were used to animal sacrifice in religious worship. They wanted real blood, not wine transubstantiated into the Precious Blood. This, of course, is blasphemy and heresy of the worst kind. "

I am not aware of any Orthodox or *Eastern* Catholic bishop wanting to do such a thing, especially since the churches there have long been Christian, translated the Gospels, instituted monasticism, developed their own chant and iconography, and the like way before most Europeans heard the Gospel and became "bikers for the Bishop of Rome."

RayK wrote:

Let's not pick on social workers.....OK? If one doesn't have a SW degree, one is NOT a social worker - period. But I agree with you 100% on the lack of spiritual formation (or the emphasis on the wrong spirit... the spirit of rebellion ).

Slava Isusu Christu!

Glenn
sinner, clinical social worker, bearded fanatic

Irrational convert exuberance?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/papism.htm

Perhaps while we are e-mailing Latin Mass magazine (which I subscribe to) we can also e-mail the webmaster of the above link and express our outrage with the above article? Or perhaps there are alot of people here who wouldn't be outraged by the above?

Let me look at this from another angle. Latin trads are often seen as angry, bitter people who are devoid of Christian love and charity. What would happen, say, if there was a council in the Byzantine Catholic Church that did away with the the Liturgy of St.John Chrysostom and replaced it with a "liturgy" that effectively gutted the traditional spirituality of the Byzantine Church? How would Byzantines react to "clown liturgies", women in miniskirts distributing Communion, iconless churches, incenseless liturgies, a liturgy no longer grounded in Patristic Truth?

Granted, the attitude of "some" Trads is one of intolerance to anything not Latin. This is a very unchristian, unhistorical position to take. Most Trads that I know respect and envy the fact that the Eastern Church has remained true to her roots. Don't let loud mouth, pseudo-apologists frame your opinion of an entire people and movement.

Perhaps Byzantines would benefit from putting themselves in the position of Latin Trads who love the historical Roman Liturgy and spirituality; and then imagine how you would feel if it was suddenly ripped away from you. Imagine Eastern Bishops being openly hostile to the Liturgy of St.John Chrysostom.

A little understanding from everyone would be helpful.

Columcille

Let us remember as some have said above, that these articles do not represent the views of mainstream Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

So, why pick on another community if one wants to vent? If my neighbor stole my car should I shoot my grandmother? Just kidding, of course. This author is typical of the many convert apologists who are trying, I think, to justify their conversion rather than giving glory to God in Thanksgiving. Most converts I know are humble.

Dear Cantor Joe,

"Irrational convert exuberance."

I've been looking for a comprehensive definition of this phenomenon with a firm overview of the overall effects on the human psyche for some time . . .

Thank you for your singular and important contribution to this field of study!

Alex

My post was not a vent. Simply a response to the topic at hand. As for your other comment about convert mentality, I agree totally.

Columcille