www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West St. Photios, Patriarch of Constantinople

"...Carroll's work comes up short."
I noticed that some conservative Catholics like the books by Warren H. Carroll on the History of Christendom. I was interested to know in what specific respects you consider that the book of Dr. Carroll "comes up short". Are there any errors of fact in the book? For example, Carroll criticises some specifics of Dvornik's book such as:
1. The labelling of two political parties of the time as Extremists and Moderates, which according to Carroll are more properly called iconodules and iconoclasts.
2. Dvornik does not mention the bribery of Bishop Radoald at the synod of Metz.
3. Carroll does not think that the testimony of Theognostos should be rejected.

Further confirms my opinion of some conservative Catholics.

K.

Charles:

My suggestion is you order the Photian Schism through interlibrary loan. If you don't know how to do that, simply go to your local public library, hand them the title and author, and they will be able to find the book for you.

>>>1. The labelling of two political parties of the time as Extremists and Moderates, which according to Carroll are more properly called iconodules and iconoclasts.

This shows that Carroll probably didn't even read the book. Dvornik wrote an entire journal article on the subject, which I will try and locate, it was called "Circus parties of Byzantium."

Dvornik constantly makes a distinction between the iconoclasts and the iconodules--but the distinction between Extremists and Moderates has nothing to do with one side being iconoclasts and the other not! Both the extremists and the moderates were icondules; their difference lied in the way that they received iconoclasts back into the fold: moderates were more forgiving obviously. Dvornik has too much proof and too many examples to be wrong on this!

As for the other two points, I don't know enough to answer that.

hope this helps!

anastasios

Dear Charles,
I believe that Photius was reconciled with the Apostolic See of Rome before his death.

Stephanos

Circut parties in Byzantium. Now we're talking. Is this where Andy Warhol got the idea for his white parties?

K!

>>>Circut parties in Byzantium. Now we're talking. Is this where Andy Warhol got the idea for his white parties? <<<

The Whites? What a bunch of losers! Red or Blue, those are the teams for you, my boy. And if anyone tells you otherwise, just yell "Nika!" and run off to burn the palace.

Dear Catholicos Mor Ephrem,

Yes, Mar Dioscoros beat up Flavian, much like St Nicholas did to Arius, just that Dioscoros got a few more blows in . . .

This was how theological debates ended. Perhaps if they had communicated via internet chat forums, they would only have to contend with Administrators and everyone could go home without swollen faces!

This took place during and around the time of the Council of Chalcedon and the "Robber Synod."

Again, Dioscoros was censured for his behaviour, not his views on Christology.

He was firmly convinced that Mar Flavian was a Nestorian and so attacked him for what he thought was blasphemy.

Byzantine Orthodoxy has an anathema service read out during the Sunday of Orthodoxy which still formally names Dioscoros and Severus of Antioch and anathematizes them. They are also "spoken ill of" in some other liturgical works where the latter is referred to as the "headless Severus."

Other local churches have quietly dropped their names.

This is why, upon reunion and the mutual recognition of teachers and saints, some liturgical adjustments will have to be made.

These saints should return to the Catholic Syriac Churches, as we agree.

I also think that when it comes to the issue of St Photios, the issue is less whether Photios actually died in communion with Rome etc.

The issue is one that comes up in hagiography frequently.

If I were a Roman Catholic who was brought up to consider Photios a heretic or whatever, it would be difficult for me to suddenly consider him a Saint. That is just human nature. The same is true for Dioscoros and Severos (I certainly don't have a problem with any of these!).

Also, if I were a Roman Catholic used to having Saints declared universal by the central authority of the Pope, the idea of local saints etc. would really be a weak one for someone already unnerved by Photios.

My (former) parish priest told me that Photios had caused a fuss in the Church (!) and for that reason alone he cannot be in the Catholic church calendar.

Sometimes Ukrainians can be more Roman than the Romans. I say this even though my surname is "Roman" as well . . .

I loved your closing line, Catholicos!

I have written it down and will carry it in my pocket for future reference - and smiles!

Alex

>>>I also think that when it comes to the issue of St Photios, the issue is less whether Photios actually died in communion with Rome etc.<<<

Because, of course, this leads to some interesting anomalies--like the fact that Basil the Great technically died out of communion with the Church of Rome, since that communion was not restored until 381, several years after he died.

After a while, we begin to see the wisdom of Christ's instruction to "let the dead bury the dead".

Dear Alex,

I'm glad you liked that last line. I thought it was appropriate, and is actually a dream I share with you...maybe if the liturgies going on in the different chapels of the edifice were all held on a great feastday that we all shared, maybe instead of having a traditional homemade lunch served for the whole church (as is our custom) we could run a state fair or something?

<<Byzantine Orthodoxy has an anathema service read out during the Sunday of Orthodoxy which still formally names Dioscoros and Severus of Antioch and anathematizes them. They are also "spoken ill of" in some other liturgical works where the latter is referred to as the "headless Severus.">>

This is interesting...the Syrian Liturgy doesn't speak of a headless Severios, of course...instead he's commemorated in the Liturgy as "our Patriarch Mar Severios, the Crown of the Syrians, the eloquent mouth, the pillar and doctor of the Holy Church of God as a whole, the meadow abounding in blossom, who preached all the time that Mary was undoubtedly the God-bearer."

It seems there's a little disagreement on how good a guy he was. Do you think that when all this controversy was going on, the Byzantines and the Syrians formed rival gangs, hence inspiring the beatdown that St. Flavian got from St. Dioscoros? If they did, I wonder what they'd say to this forum and its encouraging dialogue?

What's next, inter-marriage?!?!

Dear Stuart,

Yes, as always, you are right.

A number of saints died out of communion with Rome, even though this matter has also prevented the canonization of saints or servants of God in the West like Simon de Montfort, Jerome Savonarola (a big issue until recently) and some others.

But I think that the problem with Photios and others is a matter of (bad) habit in considering them to be something they were not.

One may overcome this in various ways, but there will always be Saints who will not be liked for various reasons, and there cult is never "forced" on anyone, of course.

God bless,

Alex

Dear Catholicos Mor Ephrem,

You raise a very interesting point.

You demonstrate that you are strongly and firmly rooted in your Syriac/Oriental Orthodox tradition, especially when it comes to an indepth knowledge of your Saints.

Is there any further doubt about it? Your Church is the Syriac Orthodox Church, friend. The Byzantine or Roman Churches just won't do it for you. Nor, I fear, the Catholic Syriac Church. Just my observation.

Of course, I would love to have you a member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

But somehow I think the Fast of Nineveh, for one thing, will cause comment . . .

You obviously know your own mind - and conscience.

If I ever married a Syriac woman, I would probably want to join her Church.

That could pose a problem re: new converts.

You know how they are, making more prostrations than the cradle-members, wearing Crosses ON TOP of the shirt, not safely tucked away underneath, Crossing oneself at the drop of a hat, insisting on Grace before meals even at McDonald's etc. etc. and so on.

I don't think any cradle Syriac woman could put up with that . . .

But they are nice, aren't they?

Alex

Yves Congar OP has an interesting take on St. Photius in his book:"I Believe in the Holy Spirit". He points out that Photius was canonized at a time when Rome and Constantinople were in communion with each other, the implication being that no Roman objection was raised at the time, so why worry? As for Dr. Carroll, as his former student and employee I regret his recent behavior and would point out it is nothing new, he was like that 20 years ago, the stroke has made little difference. He is a rather isolated person who clings to his own opinion tenaciously unless he receives formal notification from the Pope that he is wrong. And we won't lose any sleep waiting for that will we? In recent posts he has gone back to calling the Eastern Churches "rites" again! Anyway, who needs the EWTN, it was made for ultramontanes who like to pretend Vatican II never happened, or if it did, it didn't really change anything.

Might I suggest that we leave Dr. Carroll out of our discussions since it appears that his perspectives only serve to raise up the countless lunacies that have characterized the history of the Church.

I'm sure that Dr. Carroll means well. So did Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and Napoleon. They truly believed that they were doing what was best for themselves and/or the people.

Since we ARE churches sui-juris -- the Pope and Council have said so, and on many occasions have re-confirmed this -- let's leave the craziness and ignorance where it is found, and do what we have to to follow the Gospels. Stay away from the Romaniak hegemony. And to follow the dicta of Blessed Elmer of Fudd: "Be Afwaid; be vewy, vewy afwaid." Stick with our bishops and with our peoples.

Christ is Risen!

I may not agree with Dr. Carroll on many things, but please don't equate him with these evil men. There is an immense gulf between misrepresenting Eastern Catholicism and killing millions of people.

In Christ,

Anthony

I'm sure that Dr. Carroll means well. So did Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and Napoleon. They truly believed that they were doing what was best for themselves and/or the people.

Dr. John said:
>Might I suggest that we leave Dr. Carroll out of our discussions since it appears that his perspectives only serve to raise up the countless lunacies that have characterized the history of the Church.<

Dr. John I have to heartily agree with you here. It seems that people on this board cannot help from being annoyed by the good Doctor�s analysis of things ovetr at EWTN. Why they continue to read his forum is beyond me.

>I'm sure that Dr. Carroll means well. So did Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and Napoleon. They truly believed that they were doing what was best for themselves and/or the people.<

Of course you have just ignored your own advice. And I might add that equating Dr, Carroll with the likes of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, and Napoleon is yet ANOTHER lunacy! This is the NICEST thing I have to say on the matter, I�m afraid.

>Since we ARE churches sui-juris -- the Pope and Council have said so, and on many occasions have re-confirmed this -- let's leave the craziness and ignorance where it is found, and do what we have to to follow the Gospels. Stay away from the Romaniak hegemony. And to follow the dicta of Blessed Elmer of Fudd: "Be Afwaid; be vewy, vewy afwaid." Stick with our bishops and with our peoples.<

You know, I have suggested similar things in the past. The Eastern Churches have a full right to exercise their theological and ritual patrimonies without apology. Sure it will take time to feel comfortable doing this, but there seems to be a problem airing differences of opinion charitably (and no, this isn�t specific to the Easterners), especially regarding Dr. Carroll. Is he wrong regarding the Eastern Churches? Yep. Is he going to change? Possibly with prayer and work. Does complaining incessantly about him on THIS board do anything? Not besides wasting time.

To paraphrase what I have said on the other Dr. Carroll thread, �Get a life people.� If it�s horrible enough to get you to post about it on this board then it�s horrible enough to pray about.

>Christ is Risen!<

What a great way to end a posting that parallels Dr. Carroll with some of the most nefarious of men in all of history. I wish I could believe that it was a real sentiment (or even somehow appropriate after such an insult).