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#101102 05/14/03 08:19 PM
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Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas!

The fact that you went to confession to Fr. Prof. Meyendorff only shows that he knew YOU better! smile smile

You are a good sport, Father!

I'm sure your parishioners think of you as one also!

Alex

#101103 05/14/03 08:22 PM
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Christ is Risen!

I am fascinated by this topic, and see as an essential test of ecclesiology, the method by which bishops are appointed or elected. Ecclesiology in books, or in a study group is one thing... but it is seen "at work" in a very concrete way, by the way our Churches appoint and elect bishops. Our theology is not that different, but the actual praxis varies more or less in our Churches from the theology we articulate.

On this point, the current Catholic discipline (it might be noted), is really only a product of a consolidation in the past 50 years, since the death of Christian princes, when their responsibility and local contribution has been subsumed into the papal administration. Before this century, this was not the case. Archbishop Foley has written a very interesting account of this evolution, and evaluated the process in a recent book, worth considering.

Elias

#101104 05/14/03 08:23 PM
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Bless me a sinner, Father Elias,

I think you've put your venerable finger on a most important point here.

Ultimately, it matters not what is written down in dogmatic or other form with respect to patriarchal jurisdictional powers.

Ultimately, it is the praxis of the exercise of that jurisdictional power in a given context that matters.

And I maintain that whether one is Catholic or Orthodox - episcopal powers are equally absolute in either context.

In other words, if a bishop tells us to jump, we ask "how high?"

It matters not if he is a Pope, Patriarch or the man who lives around the corner from where I am.

And I say this as a theologically unlettered layman - although I do think I can entertaining!

Alex

#101105 05/14/03 08:26 PM
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Bless me a sinner, Venerable Father Elias,

Yes, indeed, and one could make the argument that the Union of Brest was brought on mainly because of a power struggle with regards to "who gets to appoint the bishops" - the Polish Catholic King or the EP?

In both cases, the bishops in question saw the process as one disrespectful of their local autonomy.

But because the Polish King appointed enough bishops that were his own partisans, the union with Rome became the politically-generated reality.

Alex

#101106 05/14/03 08:49 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Hieromonk Elias:
However I am not sure if these are categorized as 'dogmas' strictly speaking?
I will certainly leave the distinction in Fr. Elias' more capable hands. However, put another way, the ideas/teachings/doctrine/law surrounding the office of the Roman Pope are surely, at least in the eyes of the Vatican and the faithful, non-negotiable, at least, for those who reside in the Catholic communion at this time. They are a matter of the Catholic faith. (The Roman Pontiff is, the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Bishops, the Bishop of the Universal Church, Supreme Head, infallable in matters of faith and doctrine, etc...) At bit more vague, that that's what I was trying to get at.

I'm reading the Catholic Encylopedia online, and it uses pretty clear language: The Pope has "universal coersive jurisdiction," "immediate and ordinary jurisdiction in regard of all of the faithful," and has the "right of entertaining appeals in all ecclesiastical causes."

In fact, if no one minds, I'm going to quote from this article. You can draw your own conclusions between the authority of the Pope and the EP.

Quote
(1) As the supreme teacher of the Church, whose it is to prescribe what is to be believed by all the faithful, and to take measures for the preservation and the propagation of the faith, the following are the rights which pertain to the pope:

it is his to set forth creeds, and to determine when and by whom an explicit profession of faith shall be made (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. 24, cc. 1 and 12);
it is his to prescribe and to command books for the religious instruction of the faithful; thus, for example, Clement XIII has recommended the Roman Catechism to all the bishops.
The pope alone can establish a university, possessing the status and privileges of a canonically erected Catholic university;
to him also belongs the direction of Catholic missions throughout the world; this charge is fulfilled through the Congregation of the Propaganda.
It is his to prohibit the reading of such books as are injurious to faith or morals, and to determine the conditions on which certain classes of books may be issued by Catholics;
his is the condemnation of given propositions as being either heretical or deserving of some minor degree of censure, and lastly
he has the right to interpret authentically the natural law. Thus, it is his to say what is lawful or unlawful in regard to social and family life, in regard to the practice of usury, etc.
(2) With the pope's office of supreme teacher are closely connected his rights in regard to the worship of God: for it is the law of prayer that fixes the law of belief. In this sphere very much has been reserved to the sole regulation of the Holy See. Thus

the pope alone can prescribe the liturgical services employed in the Church. If a doubt should occur in regard to the ceremonial of the liturgy, a bishop may not settle the point on his own authority, but must have recourse to Rome. The Holy See likewise prescribes rules in regard to the devotions used by the faithful, and in this way checks the growth of what is novel and unauthorized.
At the present day the institution and abrogation of festivals which was till a comparatively recent time free to all bishops as regards their own dioceses, is reserved to Rome.
The solemn canonization of a saint is proper to the pope. Indeed it is commonly held that this is an exercise of the papal infallibility. Beatification and every permission for the public veneration of any of the servants of God is likewise reserved to his decision.
He alone gives to anyone the privilege of a private chapel where Mass may be said.
He dispenses the treasury of the Church, and the grant of plenary indulgences is reserved to him. While he has no authority in regard to the substantial rites of the sacraments, and is bound to preserve them as they were given to the Church by Christ and His Apostles, certain powers in their regard belong to him;
he can give to simple priests the Power to confirm, and to bless the oil of the sick and the oil of catechumens, and
he can establish diriment and impedient impediments to matrimony.
(3) The legislative power of the pope carries with it the following rights:

he can legislate for the whole Church, with or without the assistance of a general council;
if he legislates with the aid of a council it is his to convoke it, to preside, to direct its deliberations, to confirm its acts.
He has full authority to interpret, alter, and abrogate both his own laws and those established by his predecessors. He has the same plenitude of power as they enjoyed, and stands in the same relation to their laws as to those which he himself has decreed;
he can dispense individuals from the obligation of all purely ecclesiastical laws, and can grant privileges and exemptions in their regard. In this connexion may be mentioned
his power to dispense from vows where the greater glory of God renders it desirable. Considerable powers of dispensation are granted to bishops, and, in a restricted measure, also to priests; but there are some vows reserved altogether to the Holy See.
(4) In virtue of his supreme judicial authority

causae majores are reserved to him. By this term are signified cases dealing with matters of great moment, or those in which personages of eminent dignity are concerned.
His appellate jurisdiction has been discussed in the previous section. It should, however, be noted
that the pope has full right, should he see fit, to deal even with causae minores in the first instance, and not merely by reason of an appeal (Trent, Sess. XXIV; cap. 20). In what concerns punishment,
he can inflict censures either by judicial sentence or by general laws which operate without need of such sentence.
He further reserves certain cases to his own tribunal. All cases of heresy come before the Congregation of the Inquisition. A similar reservation covers the cases in which a bishop or a reigning prince is the accused party.
(5) As the supreme governor of the Church the pope has authority over all appointments to its public offices. Thus

it is his to nominate to bishoprics, or, where the nomination has been conceded to others, to give confirmation. Further, he alone can translate bishops from one see to another, can accept their resignation, and can, where grave cause exists, sentence to deprivation.
He can establish dioceses, and can annul a previously existing arrangement in favour of a new one. Similarly, he alone can erect cathedral and collegiate chapters.
He can approve new religious orders, and can, if he sees fit, exempt them from the authority of local ordinaries.
Since his office of supreme ruler imposes on him the duty of enforcing the canons, it is requisite that he should be kept informed as to the state of the various dioceses. He may obtain this information by legates or by summoning the bishops to Rome. At the present day this jus relationum is exercised through the triennial visit ad limina required of all bishops. This system was introduced by Sixtus V in 1585 (Constitution, "Rom. Pontifex"), and confirmed by Benedict XIV in 1740 (Constitution, "Quod Sancta") .
It is to be further observed that the pope's office of chief ruler of the Church carries with it jure divino the right to free intercourse with the pastors and the faithful. The placitum regium, by which this intercourse was limited and impeded, was therefore an infringement of a sacred right, and as such was solemnly condemned by the Vatican Council (Constitution, "Pastor Aeternus", cap. iii). To the pope likewise belongs the supreme administration of the goods of the Church.
He alone can, where there is just cause, alienate any considerable quantity of such property. Thus, e.g., Julius III, at the time of the restoration of religion in England under Queen Mary validated the title of those laymen who had acquired Church lands during the spoliations of the previous reigns.
The pope has further the right to impose taxes on the clergy and the faithful for ecclesiastical purposes (cf. Trent, Sess. XXI, cap. iv de Ref.).
Though the power of the pope, as we have described it, is very great, it does not follow that it is arbitrary and unrestricted. "The pope", as Cardinal Hergenr�ther well says, "is circumscribed by the consciousness of the necessity of making a righteous and beneficent use of the duties attached to his privileges....He is also circumscribed by the spirit and practice of the Church, by the respect due to General Councils and to ancient statutes and customs, by the rights of bishops, by his relation with civil powers, by the traditional mild tone of government indicated by the aim of the institution of the papacy -- to 'feed' -- and finally by the respect indispensable in a spiritual power towards the spirit and mind of nations" ("Cath. Church and Christian State", tr., I, 197).
Priest Thomas

#101107 05/14/03 09:17 PM
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Father Thomas,

Christ is Risen!

Yes I agree, but of course, the Catholic Encyclopedia is not really the teaching office of the Church.

There is a very interesting contrast to this kind of triumphalistic list of competencies, in the present Pope's own words (slightly more authoritative than the Encyclopedia article). A read of Pope's willingness to come to a new understanding of how the office of the Bishop of Rome might be transformed is located in "Ut Unum Sit". It is too bad that more bishops and theologians have not responded to the challenge.

But your point is well taken, and I tried to say the same thing. The theology of the office is one thing, and "How" it is exercised is another, and in this case, I think the sentiments of the encyclical have not yet been taken to heart by the curia and administration.

My point, was that dogmas traditionally are about the Trinity (three Persons, etc.; the Christ (true God, true man) etc., even about the Mother of God. The teaching about the Papal Office has changed (even in this century), is changing now, and is not of the same order as an article of our Faith, which of course is eternally true, and therefore, dogma.

Elias

#101108 05/15/03 03:29 AM
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Dear Father Thomas:

But what is the right comparison: canons or practice? If the latter, then Orthodox complaints of Papal tyranny ring absolutely hollow! If the former, then I think we are dealing, fundamentally with a cultural issue.

From a previous post of mine:

Quote
(from Fr. Taft's essay - Eastern-Rite Catholicism: Its Heritage and Vocation:

"The Oriental Catholic's religious point of view is as universal in essentials as the Westerner's. But he is unwilling to associate this with the fruits of human organization, of law and order and uniformity. Tending to emphasize the mystery of the Church rather than its earthly form, he is less concerned with the disciplinary and administrative aspects of its life. He sees the Church not so much as a visible society headed by Christ, than as His theophany, a coming of the eternal into "time, an unfolding of the divine life through the deifying transformation of humanity in the worship and sacraments of Christ. Life in the Church is spoken of in terms of glory, light, vision,
union, and transfiguration. The more juridical vocabulary of power, order, right, justice, sanction is less known to him. "

On many occasions over the years the EP has acted in breathakingly autocratic fashion, in flagrant violation of canon law and hallmark communion ecclesiology: by appointing Alexandrian (and other) Patriarchs; by quashing and taking over ostensibly autocephalous churches (in Bulgaria) and Patriarchal churches (in Serbia, twice). A charitable view of these situations would be to maintain that the EP was acting, in challenging situations, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, with the best interests of the Church in mind. And within an Easterm perspective of family economy above legalism this view is a of meritorious one.

On the other hand from a more legalistic, Latin perspective, such a situation is perhaps intolerably discordant. So the solution is to expand the legal authority of the Pope to an extent that allows for such important actions to be undertaken within the law, rather than in violation of it - with the full confidence that, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, this authority would be used with great solicitude, not caprice, for the good of the church family.

A perspective the has emerged on this board (here, the Primacy thread, etc.) is that the important issue is not the actual exercise of this authority, but the potential for abuse that is present in the law as framed. I think that this perspective is neither Latine or Eastern. It is a very American one of constituional checks and balances, which is very important for secular institutions. But it doesn't seem to have much significance, IMO, for ones guided by the Holy Spirit.

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