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I remember reading that the Popes mother was from a Ukrainian background. And that a three bar cross marks her grave. Also, that the Pope is reluctant to give the exact location of her grave for fear that it may be desecrated in some way. Because in the past, the Poles have desecrated the graves of both Orthodox and Eastern Catholics.
It may have been posted by Alex. Could someone confirm this? And, are there resources available to confirm this? I am in a discussion on another list with a RC who denies the Pope has any Ukrainian blood in his lineage.
Anyone, can either reply here or email me privately. Also, please let me know in any reply if I can forward your post.

Thanks,
OrthoMan (T254@aol.com)

THE PAPAL VISIT TO UKRAINE, JUNE 23-27, 2001

The pontiff's Ukrainian roots

by Roman Woronowycz
Kyiv Press Bureau

KYIV - Although it seems to be one of the most closely guarded secrets of the Vatican, the head of the Vatican's press service admitted in very convoluted language on June 24 that indeed Pope John Paul II has Ukrainian blood on his mother's side.

During a press conference the holy father's press secretary, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, told hundreds of reporters that one of the reasons the pope placed special significance on his trip to Ukraine was because he has roots here.

"I believe that there is a reason, and it is the biological element of his biography," explained Mr. Navarro-Valls somewhat obtusely.

But his statement, along with assertions by other sources, makes the matter clear: the pope's mother was Ukrainian and that makes him at least partly so.

Emilia Kacharovska, the mother of Karol Wojtyla Jr., who would become Pope John Paul II in 1978, was born in a village outside of Drohobych. During the tsarist effort to rid Ukraine of the "Uniate" element in Ukraine, that is the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, the Kacharovskys moved into the Krakow area, according to materials released by the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church's press service. In time, the Kacharovsky clan, which had spoken both Ukrainian and Polish, became completely Polonized.

In Krakow, Emilia met Karol Wojtyla Sr., and they were married. In 1920 the future pope was born. At the age of 8 young Karol lost his mother, when she died of heart problems.

The holy father has never denied his Ukrainian roots, although he refers to his mother as a Rusyn rather than a Ukrainian. The Ukrainian government news organ, Uriadovyi Kurier, in a June 23 story claimed that Pope John Paul II made such an assertion at Harvard University in a speech he gave at the Ukrainian Research Institute. The newspaper did not mention the date of the speech but cited a book by Prof. Isidore Nahaievsky as the source of the information.

Copyright � The Ukrainian Weekly, July 1, 2001, No. 26, Vol. LXIX

Dear Orthoman,

With thanks to RichC for his post, the fact is that Ukrainians and Poles have not always gotten along .

That the Pope never made it an issue to proclaim his Ukrainian roots is largely due to the fact that his identification is with Poland and not Ukraine, and that this just isn't "politic" in Poland to go around talking about one's Ukie roots.

In the province of Saskatchewan, where there is a large Ukrainian minority, many politicians of WASP background bend over backwards to show how they are somehow of Ukrainian ancestry around election time . . .

Many Poles would also deny the Pope's Ukrainian roots, even if he proclaimed it publicly in a document and it was reported on Mother Angelica's EWTN site!

On a personal and really unrelated level, (hey, it hasn't stopped me before!), the Pope looks EXACTLY like my grandfather - exactly.

And my family comes from a mixed Ukrainian/Polish background.

We're all really PUKES when you come right down to it.

Alex

Alex,

You are at it again . :p :p . Horrible joke - truly horrible.

Dear Angela,

Well, I agree this doesn't conjure up a pretty sight .

Do you know what the difference is between a Harley and a Hoover?

The location of the dirt bag . . .

(Is that any better? No? O.K. I"ll shut up!)

Alex

:p :p :p


Words fail me !!!

[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

I was under the impression that His Holiness' mother was Lithuanian.

In IC XC
Samer

[Alex,

You are at it again . . Horrible joke - truly horrible.]

Yes, but for those of us who truly have a sense of humor extremely funny. Alex, thanks for todays laugh. This even tops the story of the Ukrainian double funeral that still makes me laugh when I think about it.
Guess you have to be acquainted with Russians, Ukrainins, Carptho Rusyns, or Belorussians to appreciatethe humor.

Now, thank you all for your response. However, can someone confirm the Popes mother is buried underneath a three bar cross? And, is the Pope reluctant to devulge the location?

Dear Orthoman,

Thank you for your vote of confidence in my sense of humour - even though it isn't, well, all that "orthodox" .

If the Pope's mother was truly Greek Catholic, then, yes, the Cross would be three-bar since, at that time, that was considered the "Greek Catholic" Cross and was used to differentiate between Latins and Greek Catholics.

The Poles didn't like the three bar Cross because, to them, it represented Ukrainian and Ruthenian cultural identity.

There is a publication with pictures of many 3 bar Crosses in cemeteries and churches that have been desecrated and bent out of shape by hooligans.

There is even one of a cupola in a cow-field with a bent three bar cross.

The Pope might even have more to fear from his own hooligans than anyone else!

And just for your information, on the thread regarding "why be a Catholic?," I said that "Orthodox in union with Rome" is offensive to Orthodox since to accept Latin doctrine on the Papacy is to go against Orthodox theology as a whole.

Do you agree?

God bless,

Alex

[Thank you for your vote of confidence in my sense of humour - even though it isn't,
well, all that "orthodox" .]

You are welcome. You must be a barrel of laughs with a few shots of Vodka in you!

[The Poles didn't like the three bar Cross because, to them, it represented Ukrainian
and Ruthenian cultural identity.
There is a publication with pictures of many 3 bar Crosses in cemeteries and churches
that have been desecrated and bent out of shape by hooligans.
There is even one of a cupola in a cow-field with a bent three bar cross.]

Would you be able to find out the name of the book for me? It's not from the book entitled 'A Church In Ruins' is it?

[And just for your information, on the thread regarding "why be a Catholic?," I said that "Orthodox in union with Rome" is offensive to Orthodox since to accept Latin doctrine
on the Papacy is to go against Orthodox theology as a whole.
Do you agree?]

100%. As an Orthodox and a guest here there are certain subjects I will purposely bite my tongue and stay away from. This one and the one on Josephat are two of them. But since you asked.....The main reason we find the term 'Orthodox In Communion with Rome' offensive is the fact that it relegates Orthodoxy to a religion based primarily of ritual with doctrine as secondary in importance. Because, as I have stated many times before both here and elsewhere, the only similiarities we share with you is ritual. Your doctines are those of Rome. Two of which deal with the papacy...Supremacy (note I say supremacy rather than primacy because to an Orthodox there is a difference) and infallibility. So, I agree with what you stated.
In all honesty, since you asked, there are those of us who are Orthodox but come from an 'Eastern Rite' back ground that see it as being purposely deceptive. I remember talking to many of the older people in both my home parish and present parish about their identity when they immigrated here in the early 1900's. Most have passed on by now. But many of them told me they had no idea they weren't Orthodox until they came here. Where they were from they identified themselves as 'Orthodox' and used 'Pravoslavnie' in the Liturgy. And didn't have any idea they were connected to the RCC in any way shape or form. I think of those talks when I hear the term 'Orthodox In Communion with Rome' and that's why I personally look at it as being deceptive in nature. But that's my own honest personal opinion which is not written in gold.
Most of those people who are now part of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the Ukraine were brought up with an Orthodox identity. As were many of those people who formed the two parishes I belonged to. So, to tell them they are still Orthodox while paying allegiance to the Papal dogma is deception.
I'll tell you a true story and hope you won't be offended by my honesty. Once I visited the bookstore attached to the Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral of the Immaculate Concepton here in Philly. There was an old Ukrainian priest watching me. He came over to me and this is the brunt of the conversation - FR: "Vat church you go to?" Me: "St Stephen's Pravoslavnie." Fr: "Ver you come from in old country?" Me: "My grandparents came from Galicia, Lemkovinia." Fr: "You no Russian, you Ukrainian. You should come here."
Me: "Father, with all due respect, why should I be satisfied with being treated like a second class Roman Catholic when I can be a first class Orthodox?" Now, some may think I was being disrespectful to the priest but I wasn't. Because I respected him I was honest with him. He didn't get offended, he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away.
So, when I read the thread entitled 'Why be a Catholic' I think of that little conversation with the priest and shrug my shoulders at what I read and think "Why do they stay?".
Hope my honesty didn't offend.


OrthoMan

[ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

Dear Orthoman,

Your post is literally a treasure-chest of many important historical and theological points!

Honesty never offends, Servant of Christ!

Alex

Dear Orthoman,

In Ukraine during the Soviet occupation and the forced dissolution of the Union of Brest at the Lviv "Sobor", the Orthodox were actually adapting themselves to the Greek Catholics, and not the other way around. Also, the Leningrad Theological Academy was known as the "Underground Lviv Theological Academy" because the majority of the seminarians were actually Greek Catholics. [This was a good thing for our church, because now we have a bunch of priests who were trained very well in liturgics.]

You can modify the statement "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" to your liking. For Orthodox, you can say "Orthodox in Communion with the Second/Third Rome" (your pick).

Daniil

I would think that if we give you the courtesy of giving use the name Catholic, you could give us the courtesy of allowing us to have the name Orthodox. The theological nitpicking does not interest me. If we can't be polite to one another, what hope does any other advance in ecumenism have?

Axios

[You can modify the statement "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" to your liking. For Orthodox, you can say "Orthodox in Communion with the Second/Third Rome"
(your pick).]

It is not necessary for me to base my religious identification by expressing what Patriarchates I am in communion with. The very fact that I proclaim myself as an Orthodox Catholic, fully identifies what doctrines I believe in and what Patriairchates I am in communion with, as opposed to those I am not.
I am not that insecure about my religious identity.

OrthoMan

[I would think that if we give you the courtesy of giving use the name Catholic, you could give us the courtesy of allowing us to have the name Orthodox. The theological nitpicking does not interest me.]

Axios: How nice of you to extend to us a courtesy that is not yours to give!
We are, and have been part of the original 'One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' since it was identified as such in Nicea. We have never left it. Not through any courtesy given to us by Rome.

So religious identity isn't associated with theological beliefs but common courtesy amongst Chritians? Since when?

If everyone believed as you do, the church would really be in trouble!

OrthoMan