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Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
Michael_Thoma,
While I think the situation with the so-called 'ban' on the married priesthood in the US is quite unexplained and unwarranted, there are many who have indeed left the communion that Rome and thier Church has to pursue the married priesthood in the Orthodox Church.
Some have even come back to the Communion ordained.
My assumption is that if this became fequent enough, Rome would lift its so-called 'ban'.
As for the ECC's ordaination of married men to the priesthood, we all know it happens in America. If you don't, I am telling you it does. It happens in America and no overseas.
Futhermore, the Melkites in the diaspora, namely Australia and spainish-speaking coutnries have not at all, been reticent to ordain married men.
I don't know about Canada and France.
I can assure you though, the situation for the MElkites in america is (and has been) 'changing'. If my the situation were the same in my Church, I would be thrilled. The Malankara Catholic Church does NOT ordain married men, neither in the diaspora or AT HOME! The Orthodox do both at home and abroad.
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Originally posted by Michael_Thoma: Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
[b] Michael_Thoma,
While I think the situation with the so-called 'ban' on the married priesthood in the US is quite unexplained and unwarranted, there are many who have indeed left the communion that Rome and thier Church has to pursue the married priesthood in the Orthodox Church.
Some have even come back to the Communion ordained.
My assumption is that if this became fequent enough, Rome would lift its so-called 'ban'.
As for the ECC's ordaination of married men to the priesthood, we all know it happens in America. If you don't, I am telling you it does. It happens in America and no overseas.
Futhermore, the Melkites in the diaspora, namely Australia and spainish-speaking coutnries have not at all, been reticent to ordain married men.
I don't know about Canada and France.
I can assure you though, the situation for the MElkites in america is (and has been) 'changing'. Interesting. Is this a case of "more Catholic than the Pope", especially in this case since the Vatican seems to have actually encouraged a return to traditional practices in the homelands of the different Churches? Peace and God bless!
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Perhaps 75 years ago the forefathers of the present Syro-Malankara Catholics considered that for whatever reason it was better not to ordain married men to the priesthood. But now that the Church has her own Catholicos, it might be time for the Catholicos and Synod to reconsider the matter.
One should note that the Syrian Catholic Church in the Middle East adopted a policy of mandatory celibacy for candidates for ordination - and a few years ago rescinded that policy, so that married men may be ordained to the priesthood right now, today, in the Syrian Catholic Church.
It's certainly worth trying.
Fr. Serge
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Interesting. Is this a case of "more Catholic than the Pope", especially in this case since the Vatican seems to have actually encouraged a return to traditional practices in the homelands of the different Churches?
Peace and God bless! Brother Ghosty, I find your reply puzzling. The term homeland escapes me. The Melkite Church in America does not consider itself a 'diaspora' church. Sayenda Samra and many clergy will say as much. Furthermore, as an American, born and raised, I am not a diaspora Catholic. America is the homeland!
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Originally posted by Ghosty:
Interesting. Is this a case of "more Catholic than the Pope", especially in this case since the Vatican seems to have actually encouraged a return to traditional practices in the homelands of the different Churches?
Peace and God bless! Just a cautionary notice: When Roman Catholic friends suggested that Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Christians are trying to be "holier than the Pope," because we observe the fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, I was stunned. Use of the phrases "holier than the Pope" or "more Catholic than the Pope" are perceived to be offensive. Christ is the Head of His Church. We should take Christ, the Theotokos, and all the saints as our role models. Actually, this phrase used in a derogatory manner, made me look into Orthodoxy. The more I looked, the happier I felt. Shouldn't we all desire to be saints? Shouldn't we encourage each other to strive toward 'theosis?' If we really want the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Church to be reunited, then it might be best if we drop any derogatory phrases that only offend.
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Originally posted by Elizabeth Maria: Originally posted by Ghosty:[b]
Interesting. Is this a case of "more Catholic than the Pope", especially in this case since the Vatican seems to have actually encouraged a return to traditional practices in the homelands of the different Churches?
Peace and God bless!
When Roman Catholic friends suggested that Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Christians are trying to be "holier than the Pope," because we observe the fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, I was stunned.
Use of the phrases "holier than the Pope" or "more Catholic than the Pope" are perceived to be offensive. Christ is the Head of His Church. We should take Christ, the Theotokos, and all the saints as our role models.
Actually, this phrase used in a derogatory manner, made me look into Orthodoxy. The more I looked, the happier I felt.
Shouldn't we all desire to be saints? Shouldn't we encourage each other to strive toward 'theosis?'
If we really want the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Church to be reunited, then it might be best if we drop any derogatory phrases that only offend. [/b]Elizabeth, I agree entirely. To be honest, I do not really care if people are Orthodox or Catholic (or both  ). In a sense, all that matters is trying to be Christlike. I know that sounds protestant, so please just take what I said in context. I mean that within the context of apostolic, sacramental Christianity, one should simply strive to be humble and holy. Still, this doesn't solve the issues we have been discussing if the Church leaders think that there are real issues. Peace in Christ, Joe
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Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
Perhaps 75 years ago the forefathers of the present Syro-Malankara Catholics considered that for whatever reason it was better not to ordain married men to the priesthood. But now that the Church has her own Catholicos, it might be time for the Catholicos and Synod to reconsider the matter.
One should note that the Syrian Catholic Church in the Middle East adopted a policy of mandatory celibacy for candidates for ordination - and a few years ago rescinded that policy, so that married men may be ordained to the priesthood right now, today, in the Syrian Catholic Church.
It's certainly worth trying.
Fr. Serge Fr. Serge, Barekmor. Although the Syrian Catholics adopted the policy on paper, they never really practiced mandatory celibacy. The Malankara Catholics, on the otherhand, acquired mandatory celibacy at the same time the Pope accepted their request to retain all authentic Syro-Malankara Traditions - 
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Originally posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy:
My suspicion is still that the Vatican is a bit wary of the Melkite hieararchy and the primary reason they do not chastise Bishop Zoghby is that they know it will look bad in front of the Orthodox. I don't understand the position of either side in that case. You're second point might be correct though, at least based on the words of the Melkite Patriarch which appeared in the the Synodus Episcoporum Bulletin from 2001: H.B. Gr�goire III LAHAM, B.S., Patriarch of Antioch for the Greek-Melchites, Syria
It is incorrect to include the Patriarchal Synod under the title of Episcopal Conferences. It is a completely distinct organism. The Patriarchal Synod is the supreme instance of the Eastern Church. It can legislate, elect bishops and Patriarchs, cut off those who differ.
In No. 75, a "particular honor" given to Patriarchs is mentioned. I would like to mention that this diminishes the traditional role of the Patriarch, as well as speaking about the honor and privileges of the Patriarchs in ecclesiastical documents.
It is not a question of honor, of privileges, of concessions. The patriarchal institution is a specific entity unique in Eastern ecclesiology.
With all respect due to the Petrine ministry, the Patriarchal ministry is equal to it, "servatis servandis", in Eastern ecclesiology.
Until this is taken into consideration by the Roman ecclesiology, no progress will be made in ecumenical dialogue.
Furthermore, the Patriarchal ministry is not a Roman creation, it is not the fruit of privileges, conceded or granted by Rome.
Such a concept can but ruin any possible understanding with Orthodoxy.
We claim this also for our Patriarchal Melkite Church and for all our Eastern Catholic Churches.
We have waited too long to apply the decrees of Vatican Council II and the Encyclicals and letters by the Popes, and notably by Pope John Paul II.
Because of this the good will of the Church of Rome loses credibility regarding ecumenical dialogue.
We can see the opposite occurring: the CCEO has ratified uses absolutely contrary to Eastern tradition and ecclesiology! Andrew
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Dear brother Ilian,
To my knowledge, the Catholic Church has always differentiated between episcopal conferences,on the one hand, and synods, on the other. Episcopal conferences are a peculiarly Western institution.
Can you share the source of HB Patriarch Laham's concern about the identical equality of episcopal conferences and synods? I mean, did someone say that to him, or did he read it somewhere?
Blessings,
Marduk
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The link to the Patriarch�s comments can be found here - http://www.vatican.va/news_services..._x-ordinaria-2001/02_inglese/b10_02.html His comments I think just flesh out two main issues that are just built in to the system. The status of his patriarchate is not only subordinate to Rome, it is subordinate to the Curia. His patriarchal ministy (as leader of an autonomous ritual church), is dependent on the concessions of Rome. He rightly points out how damaging that is in regards to ecumenical relations. He also made in an interesting comment in an interview I read not that long ago in the journal �30Days� But the Eastern Churches themselves are sometimes troubled as regards the nominations of bishops.
GR�GOIRE III: For a hundred and fifty years we have elected our bishops without interferences from Rome, though nobody has ever denied Rome the right to intervene, and to us the right to apply to Rome. Simply, Rome doesn�t intervene de facto. For all that time we have elected good bishops. I don�t understand why we can�t do it now.
And when did all this change?
GR�GOIRE III: The practice was changed by Vatican II. It�s very strange. It�s strange that after Vatican II, instead of there being more freedom and autonomy for the Eastern Churches, the space has narrowed. The last comments actually goes directly against a lot of what I have seen posted on this board. Andrew
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Brother Ilian,
Would you happen to have a link to 30Days journal? I would be interested in the article.
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One thing that would help, I think, would be to dissolve the Roman Curia. That is a bit radical, I suppose. But, I see why Patriarch Gregory is complaining. It is absurd to think that the Melkite patriarch should be subordinate to a handful of Italian cardinals. To me, the existence of a Congregation for the Eastern Churches shows that the de facto policy of the Vatican is one of control and domination. Peace in Christ,
Joe
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Originally posted by Elizabeth Maria: Originally posted by Ghosty:[b]
Interesting. Is this a case of "more Catholic than the Pope", especially in this case since the Vatican seems to have actually encouraged a return to traditional practices in the homelands of the different Churches?
Peace and God bless!
When Roman Catholic friends suggested that Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Christians are trying to be "holier than the Pope," because we observe the fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, I was stunned.
Use of the phrases "holier than the Pope" or "more Catholic than the Pope" are perceived to be offensive. Christ is the Head of His Church. We should take Christ, the Theotokos, and all the saints as our role models.
Actually, this phrase used in a derogatory manner, made me look into Orthodoxy. The more I looked, the happier I felt.
Shouldn't we all desire to be saints? Shouldn't we encourage each other to strive toward 'theosis?'
If we really want the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Church to be reunited, then it might be best if we drop any derogatory phrases that only offend. [/b]Sorry if I gave any offense. My intention was not in any way to call into question their sincerity or devotion, but rather to inquire as to their reasons for abandoning their traditional practice in favor of the Latin one. In the past some Eastern Churches have adopted Latinizations even without explicit directions from Rome to do so. My question wasn't intended as a dig at traditional Eastern practices of piety, but about this particular Churches reasons for Latinizing even within their home-turf. Again, sorry for any offense. Peace and God bless!
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Originally posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy:
One thing that would help, I think, would be to dissolve the Roman Curia. That is a bit radical, I suppose. But, I see why Patriarch Gregory is complaining. It is absurd to think that the Melkite patriarch should be subordinate to a handful of Italian cardinals. To me, the existence of a Congregation for the Eastern Churches shows that the de facto policy of the Vatican is one of control and domination. Peace in Christ,
Joe I agree. At the very least the Curia should be reduced to being just the personal departments of the Roman Patriarchate. The "Oriental Churches" department should simply be the one that's responsible for keeping the Bishop of Rome up to date on the affairs of the other Catholic Churches. They shouldn't be making dictates or policies for them. They should be like a "foreign Catholic affairs" office that specialize in non-Latin Churches, IMO. The way the system is now is just.....preposterous. Peace and God bless!
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Originally posted by Michael_Thoma: Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
[b] Perhaps 75 years ago the forefathers of the present Syro-Malankara Catholics considered that for whatever reason it was better not to ordain married men to the priesthood. But now that the Church has her own Catholicos, it might be time for the Catholicos and Synod to reconsider the matter.
One should note that the Syrian Catholic Church in the Middle East adopted a policy of mandatory celibacy for candidates for ordination - and a few years ago rescinded that policy, so that married men may be ordained to the priesthood right now, today, in the Syrian Catholic Church.
It's certainly worth trying.
Fr. Serge
Although the Syrian Catholics adopted the policy on paper, they never really practiced mandatory celibacy. The Malankara Catholics, on the otherhand, acquired mandatory celibacy at the same time the Pope accepted their request to retain all authentic Syro-Malankara Traditions - [/b]Even MORE perplexing. Has there ever been any kind of official explaination for this? Peace and God bless!
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