www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Numbers, Byzantine Catholics, USA: 1990-2005

Nobody get mad...

I think that an impediment to growth of the Eastern Churches is the Divine liturgy being said in any other language other than the native language of the culture ie. this culture... English.

Ukrainian, Slovak, Romanian, Serbian, Macedonian, Greek, and all the rest are wonderful and beautiful languages, but they are not practical for Americans. (We can barely speak Spanish!)
(And many can't speak English properly as well!)

If I had went to a Divine Liturgy that was in another language the first time I went, I honestly don't think I would have went back. (Now I attend a Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian )

I think most Americans expect immigrants to speak English and that if the Eastern Churches are wanting to evangelize Americans then they have to let go of the old languages. In my town the Mass is in English not German, not French. Even though 80% of the people are of German and 20% of the people are of French descent.

One could argue that Latin was not an impediment to the growth of the Western Church so what's the big deal. Latin, up until recently was the Universal language for art, science, and philosophy. Even today many words in English have Latin roots and we use many Latin words but not many Serbian or Macedonian words.

My thoughts are that Americans are too closed minded to attend a worship service in any other language but English.

And in this MTV/video game culture people get bored too easily to try to pay attention. People say the Novus Ordo Mass is boring and it's in the vernacular!!!

Dr. Eric, who hopes no one gets mad and boots him off the forum

Who is also trying to learn Ukrainian

Dr Eric -

Personally, I'm not mad at all! I think you are absolutely correct. It makes no sense - unless the majority of your parishioners are recently from the Old Country - that you would maintain the practice of using a language other than English (or Spanish, since we seem to be fast becoming a bi-lingual nation!). If we consider the struggles and strategies of the two great missionary saints of the Slavic peoples, Cyril and Methodius, they fought courageously against the German (Latin Church) missionary hierarchy who insisted that the liturgy could only be celebrated in one of three languages: Latin, Greek or Hebrew/Aramaic. Why did they fight against this heresy of Trilingualism? Because their mission was to spread the Gospel among the Rus, and Trilingualism, which was condemned by Rome, impedes or destroys the apostolic and missionary efforts of the Church because no one who is being evangelized can hear the saving faith of the Church or pray to the Christian God in their own tongue.

A good read on this is Anthony-Emil Tachiaos's Cyril and Methodius of Thessalonica: The Acculturation of the Slavs which is publsihed by St. Vladimir Seminary press.

Parishes which insist upon retaining languages that few parishioners and neighbors speak conversationally are not or cannot be fully apostolic in their mindset. It is almost a strange form of Judaizing - you must first become (insert ethnic identity) before you can become a Christian, so we will offer language classes so that you poor neighborhood slobs and other visitors who don't speak it can learn about Christian faith and worship in our language. What happened to the theological principle of "divine accomodation"? Did not the Eternal Word of God become flesh to "translate" God's plan of salvation into a human form that the common man could receive?

Quite frankly this practice of retaining liturgical languages that no one (or very few) speaks betrays a mindset that turns the whole notion of inculturation of the Gospel on its head, making churches primarily the "bearers of national culture" instead of the "bearers of the Good News of Jesus Christ" which transforms the culture around it.

To me this is a serious pastoral issue that should be addressed. Somehow there must be a way to balance the concerns of retaining the cultural
patrimony of the parishioners and fulfilling the parishes apostolic mission which all are chrismated to help fulfill.

I recently visited Nicholai-do (Holy Resurrection Cathedral in Japan and the site of the work of the great Russian missionary saint, Nicholas, to Japan). St. Nicholas dedicated his life's work to translating the Scripture and Byzantine liturgical/spiritual texts into the language of the people - Japanese. He saw it as critical to his mission. They still use his translation of the liturgy to this day, although the ironic thing is that, because the language of the people has evolved beyond his original work, no one can understand it! Out of "respect" for the work of the saint, they still retain his translation in their worship. This is a clear impediment to the mission for which St. Nicholas labored intensely during his lifetime AND which is desparately needed among the Japanese people who in Tokyo alone have an annual suicide rate of 30,000 (as was related to me by one of my colleagues there).

People are hungry for the Gospel - for meaning to their very existence! Meanwhile we Christians artificially set up linguistic barriers to them hearing the Word of hope and faith. Where would the Slavs be had Sts Cyril and Methodius insisted that their mission use Greek? I dare say we would never have heard of them, and their obscure failed "Greek" mission would barely be a dot on the historical radar. And the relatives of many on this forum would still be pagans worshipping nature, the sun, the earth and their ancestors. Or they would be Latin Catholics!

I hope we are able to resolve this situation in North America (and Australia) sooner rather than later. The time is short and the days are evil...and the fields are ready for the harvest.

Gordo

I don't believe we can trust the numbers. The 2005 numbers as I see them are definitely inflated. I would bet my life that the closed parishes in Passaic this year are still "on the books". My understanding is in FL (Holy Apostles) parish was dissolved and the records transferred to the parish approximately 50-70 miles away. With the more recent closure of HT in Bridgeport the people were automatically put on the books at St. John's in Trumbull. Even though it has been made clear by 98% of that community that they would not go there. A few people asked for copies of their records: 1. To have so they don't "get lost" in the shuffle and 2. So there are no delays in attending and getting on the books at a new parish. My understanding from 2 parishioners are they had requested their records, I believe 3 times in the last 40 days and the response finally, was a form letter essentially telling them no. I can see reasons for not simply giving out records, but I can not understand not giving people information that is really, based on common courtesy, something they should be able to get without an issue. Dates of Baptism, Marrage, etc... It seems like stall tactics where it "might be possible to get some back" but if 1 or 2 families goes to St. Johns it is still over inflating the numbers by 34 other families. The closures over the last year in Passaic alone over inflate the books by a few hundred people.

Reaching out to ALL is key to growth of the Eastern Church. We have a rich and deep spirituallity that American Society is yearning for. We simply need to put it out there for all to see. The issue is how can a person (Clergy or laity) "give what they ain't got". We have a situation locally where a large protestant church is looking to "tear down their large house of prayer" and replace it with a structure that has more seating than St. Patricks Cathedral in NY City And they will fill it too! . This is in an average sized town not in a city. When we have opportunities to reachout and bring people to Christ the parishioners need to do the heavy lifting. However, that being said, the priest, needs to show some friendliness and spiritual leadership to have them want to come back. The fellowship and experience with the community can be done by the people but their needs to be more there from the priest. Some are excellent at this and their parishes growth shows it. Unfortunately, to many of the Catholic priests, who really don't have alot of "skin in the game" when it comes to having a thriving parish, get lazy. Please do not take this wrong, there are MANY excellent priests out there that this would not apply to . But there are many out there who are "fat and happy". I know of several priests who have pointed to their collar and stated "As long as I have this I'll always have a job." That attitude comes across "loud and clear" from those with those types of attitudes. The Catholic Church has gotten away from its "roots" they have essentially "lost their way". It appears, whether we are speaking Eastern or Western, the decision makers are "stuck in ivory towers" and don't understand the laity. ONCE AGAIN SOME DO! Some lean to heavily in the laity direction, as things such as liturgical dance was mentioned and feminist theology that eats away at what God as made manifest to us Jesus Christ was a Jewish MAN. He should be referred to as such. He took on the form of Humanity. Some lean to heavily on skewed canon law that is well law it's very legalistic and doesn't get to the hearts of people which is where conversion takes place. Can you tell I have alot pent up from not posting in approximately 2 weeks.

Very well stated Gordo!!!

I think Gordo raises a very good point:

I think there is a temptation we should all be cautious of. It is making praxis the goal instead of the means to the goal. The goal is our holiness / theosis.

After all, the Church is the mystical body of Christ. Hence, the renewal of the Church is dependant on our own personal life in Christ.

There is this Person named Jesus, who is a man and the only Son of God. And He wants us to live in union with Him in Heaven: starting now and foretasting forever. That is the goal, and we must remember that praxis is only the means to the goal, not the goal itself.

The Church increases through its saints. Thus, if we wish to renew and increase the Church, let us --by God�s grace-- become saints.

-- John

Dear Gordo,

Well said! I think you brought across the point very well, and I especially appreciate your analogy to "the Judaizers" of St. Paul's day.

When I was much younger, I used to believe that Liturgies (I was really only thinking about Latin Masses at the time) in the United States ought to be only in English, and not in Spanish, as so many are in California or New York. My reason was that I felt people should learn to integrate into the US culture, by understanding and speaking English. What you say, though, is exactly right: Insisting on Liturgies in any particular language (be it English or the language of the "Old Country") reflects "a mindset that turns the whole notion of inculturation of the Gospel on its head, making churches primarily the 'bearers of national culture' instead of the 'bearers of the Good News of Jesus Christ' which transforms the culture around it."

Eventually I came to realize that communication of the Good News is far more important than helping people integrate into their surroundings. (This is not to say that integration isn't important -- both integrating into one's new community and keeping the unique traditions from one's old culture are important.) Liturgy is meant to be a means to God's communication with us humans and of our communication with God; inculturation is meant to aid Liturgy in these functions, not impose its own goals on Liturgy.


Peace,
Alex NvV

How can someone deny you a copy of your own church records, especially after closing your church? The simplest way to get the records is to join another church, RC, Melkite, etc. Whatever is in the area. Can they deny another church? If in the future you settle somewhere else have them transferred a second time.

As forshifting numbers from place to place to make them look good- that is deceptive practice IMHO.

The eparchy website still lists names and phone #s of several parishes no longer in existence.

Sam