www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Charismatic Movement

Dear friends,

I've been asked by a couple of people here on campus to join them in a Catholic Charismatic Renewal prayer meeting type thing. I understand that Mass will be a part of it, as well as "the charismatic thing". I don't know much about this movement and its practices, though I have wanted to do some research on it for a while. I know it is approved by Rome (at least I think it is), but I had a few questions for the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox here regarding their impressions, experiences, cautions, etc. about the movement, especially since a few in my own family are drifting back and forth between that movement among the Protestants and their own Orthodox church. Thanks a lot!

I know you requested Eastern perpectives on this; but let me just throw in my 2 Latin cents.

To me the "charismatic" movement is nothing more then the continuing Protestantization(is that a word?) of the Roman Church. A charismatic Mass has the guitar and tamberine playing and the handclapping thats more fit for a sporting event. The Mass is growing evermore horizontal, when it should always remain vertical(sinful man crying to God above for mercy).

Its things such as this that I find myself drifting into the Byzantine Church.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Mor Ephrem,

Way, way back in university, I studied the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church.

For a period of six months, I attended the meetings and the training sessions. In the end, I administered a questionnaire, blah, blah, blah.

From a spiritual point of view, I felt that the praying was a bit on the odd side in the sense that it lacked the sobriety that I have always associated with prayer and worship as I understand them.

It was all very emotional and it seemed to me that there was little to distinguish the emotional from the spiritual.

There was some coercion in getting the people to speak in tongues. Those who didn't were somehow considered to have failed (as Christians?) and needed to "start over."

I also wondered where the Cross of Christ was in all this "tongue-speaking."

In fact, Orthodoxy has all the "positive" attributes of this renewal, if I may make this statement.

In Orthodoxy, there is the spirituality of the praise of God, the reading of the Scriptures, and the prayer of the Hours.

As well, there is the tremendous emphasis on the Role of the Holy Spirit and His activity as seen in the Mysteries, the Icons and Deification.

But this is all done within the context of sobriety and other attributes the Church has always insisted on.

I knew Catholics who got into that movement and wound up leaving for the Pentecostal congregations.

The Church is already, in fact, "Pentecostal" and celebrates Pentecost at each Divine Liturgy, at each Mystery/Sacrament. The Church invokes the Spirit before each prayer.

St Seraphim of Sarov defined the Christian life as the "Acquisition of the Holy Spirit."

And I know he wasn't a member of the Charismatic Renewal . . .

God bless,

Alex

Three points on this and I shall endeavor to be brief and charitable:

1. Alex is right. One telling moment was when a RC acquiantance of ours who has a charismatic background attended Orthodox liturgy with us and noted that it had a lot in common with charismatic spirituality. I found that odd at the time, but it makes more sense to me now, for the reasons Alex mentions.

2. In my experience, there is a danger in these things in that they *can* become the focus of one's spiritual life, drawing one away from the liturgical focus of the Church. I know folks involved in this who cherish their time in such groupings more than they do the Catholic Mass -- and that's dangerous because it's the wrong focus.

3. The emotional aspect Alex mentions also seems right to me, based on the individuals I have personally known who have been involved in such groups. It has a few dimensions, to namea few: (1) acceptance of a leader who has certain gifts and can guide (often a non-cleric, not subject to clerical controls -- a risk factor); and (2) desire to feel emotional gratification as a barometer of spiritual experience, and valuing spirituality primarily for its emotional content and impact. Again, once one begins to use these criteria as the yardstick for measuring one's spiritual experience, one is bound to find conventional liturgy less spiritually gratifying -- particularly in the Latin Church (but not exclusively there) -- because it is less emotionally gratifying. In the Eastern tradition, we are warned not to use our own feelings as a barometer of spiritual experience or of the value of certain spiritual practices, but to stick to the basics. While I acknowledge that there are many good people in the charismatic moevement, in my personal opinion the risks outweigh the benefits.

Brendan

Dear Alex,

In a previous thread, we discussed how we Byzantines who followed the Cappadocian way, held onto the theology of the Holy Spirit (the theological term of which, escapes me) while the Romans who veered off on the Scholastic track lost this "esotericism" if you will, and focus on the Third Person.

You could say that Orthodoxy is "charismaticism" under the auspices of Tradition and careful development. It is an Eastern spirit (a spirit in stark contrast with Occidentals') and a natural way of living out our Faith in its communal aspect, and above all is worship directed towards God.

Call me presumptous, but these Westerns clamoring in their search for the Holy Spirit through charismatic movements seem to me to be engaging in a mad Dioneysian quest for drunken revelry of a spiritual kind; It is not the Spirit that they ultimately seek, but rather they wish to sample some very unhealthy and tainted "spirits" (pun intended), to sip from a mad cup or goblet of Bacchean delights. I'm sorry to say that some Orthodox prelates are right when they consider this to be deviltry pure and simple. Any group that makes animal noises in its so called spiritual exercises fails to make me see the Holy Spirit at work here instead of the very familiar mythological scene of Bacchus' mad disciples dancing in their frenzy. Such movements seem to suffer from the same problem most in the Western Church do today, worship of self and not of God.

I think St. John of the Cross meant what he said when he warned against spiritual sweetness.

Would you find my assessment inaccurate?

In IC XC
Samer

I've hung out in Charismatic circles over a long time. There are good things and bad things about the movement. I think the bad have been already dealt with. It's certainly not everybody's cup of tea.

I've also known (rather well) folks whose faith was entirely renewed through involvement with the charismatic renewal. Like any fundamentally good thing, it can be taken to excess, and abused. The best groups I've encountered (not surprisingly) have been those which consider discernment at least as important as tongues, and which have significant involvement of sensible and orthodox priests who are in obedience to the magisterium of the Church.

Fundamentally, the charismatic renewal holds that the Holy Spirit can/should be an active, present force in the life of the Christian. Not exactly heresy. An interesting book y'all might want to check out is "Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence From the First Eight Centuries" by Kilian McDonnel & George Montague. Fascinating reading.

Just a few thoughts on a busy Monday.

Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

You might be making a mistake. We Byzantines are not Jansenists. Moreover, if you think pipe organs are holy and guitars and tamberines are not, you might not be happy in a Church that makes no liturgical use of organs but does remember David praised the Lord on guitar and tamborine.

K.

fightingIrish, you are not making a mistake. I agree with what Brendan and SamB have written. Mor Ephrem, don�t get mixed up in the charismatic movement. I lived next to such for nine years � had a �covenant community�/quasi-church as landlords. Stay away. Why this thing is at least tacitly approved by Rome is baffling � chalk it up as a mistake in prudential judgement.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 04-02-2001).]

P.S. Re: Kurt�s remark. The Byzantine Churches historically don�t use instrumental music or hymns in the Western sense (as changing musical decoration for the service). It�s all human voices joined in common prayer Godward, even if only the choir is singing.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Dear SamB,

I believe you are completely right in your assessment.

In my secular research, I came across mainstream Protestant pastors involved in counselling who were very upset with how the charismatic experiences were affecting some of the members of their congregations.

The fact of the matter is that the Early Church was a liturgical Church and this word "Leitourgoukon" (I really hope StuartK doesn't come after me for my spelling . . .)is to be found in the Acts of the Apostles.

The Early Church worshipped according to order and sobriety.

It is also presumptuous to speak of receiving the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" without the judgement of the Church and Her holy traditions pertaining to true Christian spirituality and asceticism.

Someone once asked St Theopilus, the Fool for Christ's Sake in Kyiv, how hard it was for him to receive the Gifts he had.

He told that person to pull out a hair from their brow and tie it in a knot.

When he did that, Theophilus told him to tie another knot.

Try as hard as he could, he couldn't do it.

"That's how hard it was," said Theophilus.

Glory to God!

Alex

I'd like to thank you all for your responses to my question. The University server has been a bad boy for a few weeks, so I'm just checking things now. I tend to agree with Alex's assessment of things, as well as Brendan's, because I've seen it firsthand.

For instance, the people in my family and among my friends who tend toward the charismatic tend to not emphasise the Liturgy of the church enough, or the sacraments. For them it seems that these get in the way of their personal experience with the Holy Spirit. I've always marvelled at this, seeing as we have in our Syrian Church the beautiful prayer said by the deacon right before the Epiclesis, as the priest flutters his hands over the Qurbana:

"Barekhmor, How awesome is this hour and how dreadful is this moment, my beloved, wherein the Holy Spirit from the topmost heights takes wing and descents and hovers and rests upon this Eucharist here present and sanctifies it. Be in calm and awe, while standing and praying."

And the silent prayer the priest sings while the above is sung:

"Have mercy upon us, O God the Father, and send upon these offerings Your Holy Spirit, the Lord Who is equal to You and to the Son in dominion, reign, and eternal substance; Who spoke through Your Old and New Testaments; and descended in the likeness of a dove on our Lord Jesus Christ in the Jordan River and in the likeness of tongues of fire on the apostles in the Upper Room."

You are right, Brendan. If one's focus in prayer isn't towards the Holy Liturgy, then something's not quite right.

And you are also right about your third point. Those in my family who are somewhat active in this movement sometimes pray with a group founded by this guy in India who, and I quote my aunt, "whenever he prays, whatever he prays for happens, and he knows the future, and God talks to him." It gets to the point where any big decision is automatically referred to this guy, even if the long distance rate is a killer. Their emphasis on feelings and emotions is something else I've noticed. Somehow when I pray, because I don't get all excited or jumpy, but instead pray in "calm and awe", I must not be so close to God (I've had trouble with prayer for a while now, and that's one reason I thought of perhaps attending this CCR meeting, because they seemed to have no trouble praying; but it makes sense that they wouldn't have trouble if they always felt they were being heard because of the gifts they receive...perhaps I just need to persevere more, regardless of the arid feeling?). Because instead of reading that man's books and hearing his tapes, I read the Orthodox Fathers, I'm branded as old-fashioned and not up to date. I should read this new stuff because "it's more relevant". As if Mor Ephrem (not me , the other one) and all the other Holy Fathers wrote only about things applicable to their time, but not to ours. I'm sorry if liking the Orthodox Fathers is out of touch with reality. I guess I don't belong on earth?

Some of the things I hear about the movement look positive...I see the way my relatives have come closer to the Lord, and it makes me happy. I just regret it when they put aside as less important the Divine Eucharist and Confession, and the tradition of the Church. There are so many riches where we are...

Anyway, thanks to all for their astute observations.

Dear Serge,

Your kind (and direct! ) warning is taken. Thanks, brother!

Hello friends....

I grew up in a Roman Catholic charismatic household. Many of these observations are quite correct.

Many of these RC charismatic people are very holy and devout. Most have very strong prayer lives which revolve around Scripture reading and prayer requests.

Here's the scoop....Most of these people are looking for a sense of community. Their parish lives are very unfulfilling and the charismatic movement allows them to have some kind of liturgical life and fellowship. This is too bad. Usually, these groups break up because the movement is structured on an emotional surface and not that of the Sacraments, etc. Furthermore, it is too bad that the RC bishops are endorsing this movement....not that what the charismatics do is terrible per se, but that the bishops are not addressing the problems in the local parishes.

BTW, guitars and tamborines are cool, just not at Liturgy. Two main reasons: 1) they are not part of the tradition; 2) they don't elevate one's thoughts and senses to the Awesome Presense. Some may argue that guitars and other Bob Dylan era instruments do in fact aid in prayer. This may be so for some, but it is not very sustainable as a vehicle for prayer and is not objectively beautiful (liturgically, at least).

Regards,

Greg the Melkite and ex-Roman Catholic who still thinks Palestrina blows away Arabic chant!

If you want to read a sober critique of the charismatic movement in general, see Fr. Seraphim Rose's "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future". He has a chapter on the entire movement (not just the RC version).

[Greg the Melkite and ex-Roman Catholic who still thinks Palestrina blows away Arabic chant!]

AY'YUHAL KAFIR'UL LA'EEN! ;-)

In IC XC
Samer

[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 04-02-2001).]