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I asked Father if the BC's had a Charismatic movement to which he replied. "We don't have one. We are one."

Understood. And in a sense I agree.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

Dear Serge,

Of course -- The true charisms of the Holy Spirit manifest themselves in true worship in a True Church.

Christ is Risen Indeed!!!
John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

bacolumban,

I'm sorry. I just read your post. If I had been thusly manipulated in my experience I would have done as you did. In fact I would have run away as fast as possible.

I have not ever found such manipulation in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Rather, I find a joy in worship that far surpasses anything I've ever known before.

Dan L

As a seminarian, I had the opportunity to be present at a 'Charismatic Movement' prayer event in a Roman Catholic parish. To be honest, it scared the crap out of me.

I was beginning my doctoral work in linguistics; I spoke fluent Latin; pretty good Greek, and had finished 2 semesters of Hebrew. (Along with German, Italian, Swedish, Icelandic, Old Church Slavonic and Modern Greek. Oh yeah, and some French too.) I heard the 'phonations'. They were pretty much American English sounds, but in combinations that had no meaning to me.

Perhaps what was being 'uttered' (a technical linguistic term) had meaning for the utterer, but it communicated nothing to me. I don't disrespect the individual, nor the event, but I personally wanted to be in some other terrestrial quadrant. And I 'hied thence' as quickly as my feet would allow. I didn't even wait for the seminary car to return home; I took the bus. I found it frightening.

I'll take the Arabic, for $200 please, Alex.

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

You can have it free of charge!!

Linguistic anthropology has always fascinated me.

These social scientists can identify all kinds of languages that have died out and a number of them studying the charismatic movement say the people are, in some cases, speaking languages that are now dead.

Having gone through the Charismatic "training," I concur that the Bible reading etc. are positive and good things (!).

For me, this experience showed me the door - into the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Here the Holy Spirit is invoked and He works through the liturgy, art, Mysteries etc.

He divinizes, transfigures, changes and infills.

He makes me want to leap for joy, although not while the Priest is delivering his sermon.

The acquisition of the Holy Spirit is the goal of the Orthodox Christian life.

The Eastern Church is the original Pentecostal Church, with sobriety thrown in.

Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee!

Alex

>The Eastern Church is the original Pentecostal Church, with sobriety thrown in.<

This is an excellent point. Many of the Charismatics I know (mostly Catholis but some Protestants) seem to want to bring private devotional stuff (certain types of music, extemporaneous prayer, and...sorry guys...praying in tongues) into a liturgical context where it just doesn't belong. I find it hard to believe that people don't see the beauty of worshipping God at Mass or the Divine Liturgy. Maybe if priests concentrated on celebrating the sacraments in a devout manner and the laity concentrated on what was going on and prayed the prayers of the liturgy there would be less of a need for this.

>Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee!<

Amen. Now make sure that your Cantor and acolytes are suitably armed with their guitars for Divine Liturgy this Sunday

Dear Ignatius,

Good to have you back!

I don't know about any guitars, but our cantor has been stringing some of us along in other ways . . .

Let me add that your last post on the Church was so insightful and had so much sensitivity to the issues important to both East and West.

And what do you call a charismatic Cantor in the Eastern Church?

Someone who speaks in Tones.

Alex

>And what do you call a charismatic Cantor in the Eastern Church?

Someone who speaks in Tones.<

Heh, heh. Alex, obviously you have not received the gift of Holy Humor!

I thought being charismatic meant being a "babe magnet." I have never seen a cantor having groupies though.

Dear Ignatius,

You are right, I'll keep praying . . .

On the issue of humour, when St Thomas More, a noted humorist of his time, was beheaded, it was said that God punished the English for this by imposing on them a sense of humour that only they themselves could understand, but no one else.

When friends jovially criticized More for taking such a short wife when he was so tall (his first wife), he replied by saying he "took the lesser of two evils."

But I remember visiting his chapel where his two wives are buried together in one vault. Nearby is a poem he wrote to them both saying that he didn't know which one he loved more, either now or in Heaven . . .

St Philip Neri is my favourite humor-saint, who, as you know, trained people spiritually through humour.

Do you think I can use to spend some time with his spiritual descendants?

Alex

>St Philip Neri is my favourite humor-saint, who, as you know, trained people spiritually through humour.<

Another one of my favorites! I like Newman a lot, too, but the two seem a little different to me in this regard (at least as far as I can tell).

>Do you think I can use to spend some time with his spiritual descendants?<

I don't know, but I have often said I will be in Purgatory until I don't find my jokes funny anymore! Maybe you'll be in some place with no name until you improve your sense of humor. Say hi to all the Orthodox there since they won't be hanging out with me in Purgatory

Dear Ignatius,

I don't know about Purgatory, but I hope I don't spend time with any "old flames."

Alex

The way I see the matter of the "Charismatic Renewal" is the same way I see the Eastern Catholic churches. Why, you ask? How so? Well, simply put the Charismatic movement, in my opinion, is a viable source to discover one's own spiritual path, at least was my case. Well you can say, "Thats what the church is for", or "We already have this in our (Eastern) churches, so there is no need to have this movement". Yet I see it this way, just like Eastern Catholics choose to live their lives in accordance to what they believe to be the correct path, so can Roman Catholics wishing to improve their own beleifs, through this movement. Whether you like it or not or have had bad experiences relating to the movement, it should not be "banned". We should not attempt to discourage our bishops from sponsoring these programs, millions of loyal Catholics partake in them. Now before someone states that Eastern churches are not movements, thus cannot be compared to the Charismatic renewal, let me tell you that you are correct. However, I am simply trying to say we each have our own preferences in life our cups-of-tea if you will. So just b/c to some it may seem incongruous to their own practices it does not, in any way, mean that it is wrong. If it was, it would not exist.

Blessings to All,

ProCatholico

Bandura anyone????

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear ProCatholico,

I don't disagree with you at all!

I myself was led to the Eastern spirituality of the Byzantine CAtholic Churches, from my hybrid existence of before, through the Charismatic movement.

I think though that there are dangers that need to be addressed and that laxity in this can lead to catastrophe.

The groups I studied within the linguistic anthropological perspective (my only venture into this area, Dr. John!), evinced qualities of being a cult or a potential to develop into one.

Again, I am not saying that all groups are like this, only that the ones I studied didn't seem to have proper pastoral guidance, even though there were priests who were participating in the prayer groups.

Speaking for myself, I realized that my initial need for group prayer was a need for liturgical prayer.

What has always attracted me to Orthodoxy and Byzantine Catholicism is the emphasis on liturgical prayer.

It at once addresses my social, psychological, emotional, spiritual etc. needs while allowing me to express fully the glorification of God in the Holy Trinity.

The Charismatic renewal helped me see this, but at the same time I was compelled to go on to the liturgical Church to find the ultimate fulfillment of what I was searching for.

Alex