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#102339 10/26/04 10:53 PM
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Here's an explanation of one aspect of the two liturgies, East and West, that should ispire conversation.

The Direction of Prayer

In order to understand the meaning of the Liturgy, it is often necessary to consider different directions our practices could take.

In the Western world, the Byzantine Church is a minority. In the past we have been greatly influenced by the Roman Church. Since we are both followers of Christ, there is actually much we can learn from each other. However, it is a "latinization" of our Church when we adopt a Roman custom because we feel somehow inferior to the larger Church. I would like to mention one custom which has hardly affected our Church but which is an important difference. This is the question of the direction of prayer.

In the Byzantine Church, according to ancient tradition, everyone prays facing the east, the direction of light from the rising sun. Now it is true that not all our churches actually face east, so this means the priest and the congregation all pray facing the holy table, the altar.

This has changed in the vast majority of Roman churches, for the people pray facing the altar but the priest prays facing the people. This has had a great influence on the Maronites and other Oriental traditions. This custom has become standard in Roman churches and any church that does not follow this custom is considered extremely conservative and old-fashioned.

What are we, as Byzantine Catholics, to think of this situation?

I think that the practice of the priest facing the people is a liturgical mistake.

The rule on the direction of prayer was not given by the Vatican II Council�s decree on the Liturgy but was included in the instruction on implementing the decree. The Liturgy was considered a meal and the family of the church gathered round the holy table to partake of the sacred food of the Eucharist.

The reason given today is that the priest should not turn his back to the people because to do so would be a breach of hospitality. However, this carries with it a presumption that could be misinterpreted: the priest is the host of the Liturgy. Of course, at any secular banquet, it would be a serious breach of etiquette for the host to turn his back on his guests. The problem is that in our liturgical service, the priest is not the host. In a secular banquet, the host serves his guests first and then himself at the end. In the Divine Liturgy, the priest takes Communion first and then gives the Eucharist to the congregation. This is because he is not the host. The true Host is Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Who gives Himself to us in Communion, beginning with the bishop and/or the priest.

In the Western Church, when the priest administrates the sacramental mysteries, he pronounces the formulas in his own name. "I baptize..." In the Byzantine tradition the priest says, "The servant of God is baptized..." In both Churches, however, the same reality is present and the power and grace and redemption come through Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit. The words are pronounced by a human being but the power is God�s. Because of the difference in emphasis in the two theological traditions, it is more difficult in the Eastern Church for the priest to take the position of host.

Though it is most probably not intended, the position of the priest facing the people can be misinterpreted to diminish the central role of the presence of God in the worshiping community. It seems ironic that some Roman Catholics criticize Eastern priests for having their backs to the people when in reality, the Byzantine priest is being more democratic, praying facing the Lord on the altar together with the people.

Fr. David M. Petras, in Horizons, the official newspaper of the Byzantine Eparchy of Parma, Ohio.

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Listen to "Light of the East" 11:30 a.m. Sundays on 820 AM in Chicago or on the web at www.byzantinecatholic.com [byzantinecatholic.com]

#102340 11/04/04 01:27 AM
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Thank you, Dan.

I think Fr. Petras is fair in his criticism of the versus populorum common in most Roman churches. It dramatically (over)emphasizes the aspect of a celebratory meal instead of the Bloodless Sacrifice of the Christ-God, which was formerly so well understood in the Western Church. In many of the major basilicas of Rome, the Novus Ordo Masses are held ad orientam, as they should be. Perhaps it is not a minority of Roman parishes that are "extremely conservative" but rather a majority which are extreme; extreme in the fact that they buck a meaningful tradition.

Logos Teen

#102341 11/04/04 03:59 AM
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Please confirm:

The reason for moving the altar toward the middle of the sanctuary in the Latin Church is so the altar may be incensed from all four directions. Celebrant facing the people came from ???

On the other hand:

I've been told that the main altar in St Peters's is on the West side of the basilica.
And that for some long period of time, pre- Vatican II, and earlier, the Pope offered mass facing the people (the Pope facing East) just like he does today.

Am I dreaming or is there some truth to these urban church legends?

Paul

#102342 11/04/04 04:28 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by paromer:
Please confirm:

The reason for moving the altar toward the middle of the sanctuary in the Latin Church is so the altar may be incensed from all four directions. Celebrant facing the people came from ???
I don't know about this one. I think the change comes from GIRM 299 "...Mass can be celebrated as it [sic] facing the people, which is deisirable wherever possible". See also GIRM 146.

I'll go pull out my VII documents and my copy of Archbishop Bugnini's book and take a look.......

And, for what it's worth, the priest answering the Canon Law forum at EWTN states [ewtn.com] that a bishop is in his right if he wishes to ban versus orientum celebration since there's no provision for it in the GIRM.

Quote


On the other hand:

I've been told that the main altar in St Peters's is on the West side of the basilica.
And that for some long period of time, pre- Vatican II, and earlier, the Pope offered mass facing the people (the Pope facing East) just like he does today.

Am I dreaming or is there some truth to these urban church legends?
I heard this too. Howeer, I'm not a liturgical expert and I can't comment on its veracity.

#102343 11/04/04 05:24 PM
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Marc,

I think the thing about bringing the altar into the center of the sanctuary for incensing was mentioned in a book about the Latin liturgy written by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Ratzinger talks about facing East, but in this book he is silent about facing the people. I thought that was strange. I was expecting more guidance from the Cardinal.

Paul

#102344 11/04/04 05:44 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by paromer:
Please confirm:

The reason for moving the altar toward the middle of the sanctuary in the Latin Church is so the altar may be incensed from all four directions. Celebrant facing the people came from ???

On the other hand:

I've been told that the main altar in St Peters's is on the West side of the basilica.
And that for some long period of time, pre- Vatican II, and earlier, the Pope offered mass facing the people (the Pope facing East) just like he does today.

Am I dreaming or is there some truth to these urban church legends?

Paul
I have heard that one of the reasons for the priest facing the people in the Latin Mass, was to de-emphasize the Mass as sacrifice and emphasize the table/meal aspect. Motive? I don't know, but have heard that this came out of the "if we can just be more like the Protestants they will join us" mentality. Apparently the "meal" aspect is more acceptable to Protestants than sacrifice. Who knows? As for the altar in St. Peters, the book "The Bones of Saint Peter" by John Walsh indicates that the current altar is placed in the same location as the altar in the original Roman building. When the excavations for the current church were going on, the area under the altar was not allowed to be touched because of St. Peter's grave underneath. Walsh (or maybe it was the Gamber book I read, I don't remember) says that priest and people faced east toward the rising sun through the open doors of the church during liturgies in the original building.

#102345 11/05/04 01:00 AM
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ByzanTn,

Come to think of it, I was questioning the meal aspect which I noticed in my Liturgy of Hours books but forgot about, I must look into this a bit more.

As for the Altar location, from what I have read, there were no instructions from Rome stating it had to be done.

I've posted this before by Rev. Joseph Fessio

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html

james

#102346 11/05/04 01:06 AM
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Regarding the issue of St. Peter's Basilica. I likewise understand this was how it was, however there is another tidbit I have heard as well -- which would be great to confirm. Some have said that when the time came for the liturgy of the Eucharist, not only did the Holy Father face east at the altar, but likewise all the people turned and faced east. Whether that is mere legend or fact I know not. It would be interesting to find out. I imagine it is factual from at least some period, but whether it was occuring immediately before the Second Vatican Council, I know not.

Cardinal Ratzinger has apparently made statements about the prudence of returning to the traditional practise, not because the other is wrong, but in order to re-emphasize the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

Ignatius Press has recently released a book called:

"Turning Towards the Lord: Orientation in Liturgical Prayer" which addresses this very issue and makes an argument for the ancient practise of priest and people facing the Lord together. Ought to be good.

#102347 11/05/04 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by Jakub:
ByzanTn,

Come to think of it, I was questioning the meal aspect which I noticed in my Liturgy of Hours books but forgot about, I must look into this a bit more.

As for the Altar location, from what I have read, there were no instructions from Rome stating it had to be done.

I've posted this before by Rev. Joseph Fessio

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html

james
I think you are right about the altar location. The book I was trying to think of was, I believe, something like "The Reform of the Roman Rite" by Msgr. Klaus Gamber. I don't know if it's still in print.

#102348 11/05/04 01:25 AM
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Originally posted by Shawn:
Regarding the issue of St. Peter's Basilica. I likewise understand this was how it was, however there is another tidbit I have heard as well -- which would be great to confirm. Some have said that when the time came for the liturgy of the Eucharist, not only did the Holy Father face east at the altar, but likewise all the people turned and faced east. Whether that is mere legend or fact I know not. It would be interesting to find out. I imagine it is factual from at least some period, but whether it was occuring immediately before the Second Vatican Council, I know not.

Cardinal Ratzinger has apparently made statements about the prudence of returning to the traditional practise, not because the other is wrong, but in order to re-emphasize the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

Ignatius Press has recently released a book called:

"Turning Towards the Lord: Orientation in Liturgical Prayer" which addresses this very issue and makes an argument for the ancient practise of priest and people facing the Lord together. Ought to be good.
What I have read is that in the churches built by Constantine and his mother, the east wall of the church had doors that were swung open so the priest and people could face the rising sun during Mass.

#102349 11/05/04 01:33 AM
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Dear James,

"And, by the way, never in the history of the Church, East or West, was there a tradition of celebrating Mass facing the people. Never, ever, until 1969."--Fr Joseph Fessio.

I admire Fr Fessio's work at Ignatius Press. That is a bold stance for him to take. I still have doubts. I'm not intellectually satisfied. This is one of those things left undone following Vatican II.

Paul

#102350 11/05/04 01:58 AM
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Dan,
We heartily agree! I was a liturgical disaster for the West to turn away from the East.
(And BTW I am not an ultra conservative)
Stephanos I

#102351 11/05/04 02:25 AM
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If the changes indicated by Fr.Fessio did not come from Vatican II or within its documents, who & where did it originate from ?

Will attempt to research.

james

#102352 11/05/04 05:29 AM
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Dear Friends,

Yes, there is a need of catechisis of Latin tradition on the matter of a priest facing the people. Include Tradition, church history, and current liturgical law. I don't know of any books which speak on this topic with the force of the Latin church's authority.

However, right now, it is plain to see the Holy Father practicing facing the people during Mass, from my observations, he does this wherever he offers Mass. My position is if the Holy Father does something then it must be correct for the Latin church.

Certainly we may disagree, but we must respect the Pope's authority. If you think the Pope is wrong, write your bishop and voice your objection. eek

Christ is our peace.

Paul

#102353 11/05/04 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:


What are we, as Byzantine Catholics, to think of this situation?

I think that the practice of the priest facing the people is a liturgical mistake.

Ah, yes........
Another Byzantine Catholic has discovered one of
the MANY "liturgical mistakes" inherent in the
protestantized "Novus Ordo"......

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