www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Vocation Crisis, real or not?

This is sort of a place holder for this topic.

I think we could have a good discussion on this, right now I have little to add except for the following. I may have more later as the topic progresses.


Is there really a crisis in vocations or is the crisis that the church of today can not find and fit every vocation into the artificial mold that they have created?


Just some thoughts.

David

Here some statistics about the RC Church:

From 1965 to 1973, between 22,000 and 25,000 priests left the priesthood and got married. Today they have reached the number of 110,000.

157,000 of 365,000 (43%) catholic parishes no longer have a resident priest.

In 1970 there were 1,003,670 nuns with temporary and perpetual votes; in 1992 only 655,031.

The Official Catholic Direcory of the USA revealed that the number of men in seminaries in 1998 was 1700, 97% (in 1966 the number of vocations was 48,000).

But this crisis is the particular crisis of the western world. In India for example, there is an enormous number of men in the seminaries (latin, malabar, and indian orthodox) and in many Orthodox nations (Albania, Serbia, Ukraine) there is a true resurrection of faith and spirituality.

Dear DavidB,

Yes, I've often wondered about all those books one finds in our local Catholic store about Eucharistic Ministers and other lay leaders.

It is as if the Latin Church here is getting used to the fact of fewer priests.

The married priests that Remie mentions have, to a large extent, formed a synod and petition the Vatican regularly to receive them back as . . . can you believe . . . MARRIED PRIESTS!! Horrors!!

How dare they? Who do they think they are?

I guess in true Latinist fashion, they could all join a Protestant Church as a minister and then petition to come back.

They could put "invincible ignorance" to work for them.

I think Stuart in his earlier comments about different modalities of priestly formation according to our tradition raised the important issue of adapting priestly training to our Church's needs today.

And that could or could not include seminary training - depending on how one conceives seminary training.

A life of holiness, knowledge of the Church's canons and of scripture, a good grasp of the liturgical rhythm of the Church's worship, (a good singing voice - I'm off the hook, hey!) sympathetic understanding of people and their problems - these are things a priest needs absolutely.

Hopefully, there are seminaries around that can impart these values to priestly candidates.

I'm just wondering out loud if a degree in theology is what is necessarily required of a priest in our tradition.

Someone who wants to teach, yes, and then some.

But a parish priest?

Alex

I think I have to add a bit more to be understood better.

Right now, we in the Byzantine Catholic Church have a celibate priesthood. We also have a few monks out in the desert of California.

Our seminary is a, sort of, monastic type experience which while suited for a celibate priesthood does not make much sense for a married man to attend (again as it is today).

What about older vocations?

What about monastics in the city in service to the local church?

And then there is the issue of requiring certain degrees to attend the seminary and diaconate program. Is this saying that a true vocation can only be found with those who have the finacial ability to attend higher education?

I have seen that in the Orthodox Church, they make allowances for older vocations who may not have a degree to attend the seminary on a certificate type program.

It just seem that if the vocational call someone has is not to the celibate priesthood or to the monk in the desert that no one is really interested in talking to you.


David

I'm not sure if it is a good idea that I enter here or not - but I've bin and gone and dun it

OK - I don't know about your particular Churches - but I honestly believe that we in the UK in the Latin Church have a Vocations Crisis.

I can't quote statistics - don't know where to find them - but when 3 underused Scottish Latin Seminaries have to be put into 2 - and even then they will be far from full - then we have problems.It is even mooted that there will not be a Scottish based Seminary !!

We don't ordain enough each year just to replace known retirals - never mind any other reasons for priests giving up their Priesthood.

The training certainly needs to be examined - yes those who are intended to be the future teachers need more academic work - ours get 1 year extra - and have to train in Rome or Spain.

Often our Spaniards and Romans get little Parish experience before going into a Parish - one month/year - is this enough?

Sorry - should not have got in on this - well I am vanishing this week again-- so I won't be able to defend my corner - but I have to say that I do think the whole system of training for the Priesthood, East and West does need to be looked at and evaluated very very carefully

Angela

I've seen that many latin authors, and even Bishops think that the the restoration of married priesthood in the Latin Church will be the solution for this lack of vocations, but this is a way to simplify something whose nature is very complex. It is complex because this is not a matter of statistics or number of priests: there is a problem in the formation and preparation of their priests too, the new catechesis, the new liturgy, and many other isues that are involved.
Maybe if mandatory celibacy becomes optional in the Western Church, there'll be more priests, but these priests would be nothing more than Eucharistic Ministers (as Fr McLucas said in his Book about the feminization of Priesthood)and everuthing would be the same.
I am sure that the Eastern model of an optional celibacy does work (it has worked for centuries) and it may work in the Western Church, but I've seen that the model of optional celibacy that the Western Church prepares for the future is similar to that of the Anglicans and not to that of the ancient christian tradition.

Dear Remie:

Sorry, but I find your "statistics" a little bit outdated.

The latest "Annuario Pontificio" presented by Cardinal Sodano to His Holiness on 09 February 2002 (which covers up to end of 2000) presents, to me, a different picture:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/ZPRIESTS.HTM

As to the statistics on the U.S. Catholic Church as of the end of 2001, the following appear:

--64 million Catholics (an increase of 15 million from 1965), or about 25% of total U.S. population, consisting of 78% White/Caucassian, 16% Hispanic, 3% Black, 2% Asian, and 1% Native American;

--19,143 parishes, up from 17,637 in 1965, (spread under 186 dioceses and 8 archdioceses)manned by 30,223 diocesan priests;

--375 Bishops, including 13 Cardinals/Archbishops;

--45,191 priests (30,223 diocesan and 14,968 religious) down from 58,632 in 1965;

--3,992 major seminarians, down from 9,319 in 1965;

--30,000 paid lay ministers and around 200,000 unpaid volunteers;

--total expenditure for charities in FY 2001 reached US$2.28 billion;


AmdG

Dear Amado,

Yes, I had lunch with Cardinal Sodano in July!

He asked why I wouldn't consider becoming a priest.

Sorry that I contributed to the vocations crisis by saying, "No."

Alex

Angela,

I know that you agree that there is a Vocation Crisis, but I would submit that what you go on to say shows that there really isn't a Vocation Crisis.

I think the vocations are there, it is the Church that has the crisis.

God is calling people, it is the Church that has the problem recognizing this.

I think the Church either does not recognize the call in some people because it is not the call that they expect or they, the Church, choses to ingore the call because it doesn't fit with what they want/expect.


David

David - I'm not totally in agreement with you here. And I suspect this is not just a problem for us Latins I think we also have to ask are there enough generous parent who feel they can raise the question with their sons ? My understanding is that in the East the Parishes can also suggest it if they recognise that someone appears to have 'the call'.

I just know that here not enough young men are even thinking about it - our diocese has a grand total of 6 Seminarians at various stages in their Formation a 6 or 7 year Formation [ depending where the Seminary is] - and those are in 3 Seminaries. The whole of Scotland has 38 seminarians [ last years numbers]

We are not the only ones wondering about a crisis.
One of our Bishops has actually come out and said that he feels that we should seriously consider whether a married priesthood would help - remember I am talking about an RC Bishop here - and one who is not known as a Modernist.

I still think it comes down to - not enough people coming forward, selection of really good candidates and their academic and Spiritual Formation.

Hello everyone,
This might steer outside the topic of discussion. How many of these Roman Catholic seminaries have a sizeable gay population? I recall my best man who attends St. Vladimer in NY telling me he played basketball with the RC seminarians that were "flaming". lol. I couldn't help but to think that these seminaries need some major cleansing. This may or may not play a part in why normal celibate men do not want the RC priesthood in addition to the current conditions of the Roman Catholic Church. The sexual/gender disorientation is at an all time high in this western culture of ours.

"God save our people and bless thine inheritance."

Angela,
This is part of the problem. You can not tell me that God is not calling people to service, even if parents are not raising the question to their children. And who's fault is it that parents are not open to vocations? The Church.

Also only the Church can call one to a vocation. Parents, friends, and parishes may suggest that one could have a vocation, but it is the Church, through the Bishop or religious superior, that calls one to service in the Church, even in the west.


As for this crud Rum Orthodox, it is nothing but hearsay, it would never stand up in a court of law. I suggest that you start a new thread if you wish to discuss this.

This topic has nothing to do with seminaries, it has to do with what the Church is doing with vocations, how it choses to recognize them or if it even does when the vocation does not fit the mold that the Church has for vocations.

I would submit that one size does not fit all in the case of vocations.

Alex,

Was Cardinal Sodano aware that you are a married man when he asked you this? Only a few years ago he tried to have all of the married Ukrainian Catholics priests expelled from Poland, saying that married Eastern priests cannot minister in the "diaspora." Did your warmth melt his heart on this question?

Anthony

I read some where that there used to be a pedament to the priesthood: being ugly. How ugly?
I guess thats why Bishop Dudick turned me down.

Angela: You only have 38 seminarians in Scotland. But only 11% of Scots are Catholic.

I had a wonderful experience 10 yrs. ago. I did archaeological work at Whithorn Abbey in Dumphrieshire. It was great!.

Yes Mike - you are right !

But if we cannot replace priests who retire or are no longer fit to serve, never mind those who die in Service then what happens to our parishes? For 2 years a Parish in a neigbouring Diocese did not have a resident Priest instead it had a nun who administered the Parish !

You are right about Whithorn - a lovely place.

Ach - there is no easy answer to these problems