www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Vocation Crisis, real or not?

Mike C:

It's minor but EWTN puts the current number of Catholics in Scotland at a higher 15% of the total population.

But this is of course tragic since the Catholic Church hierarchy was restored only in 1878 after being outlawed in 1560 by the Presbyterian Parliament.

So, Angela keep plugging on!


AmdG

Dear Amadeus and Angela,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that in Scotland Churches were never allowed to "fizz out" but were always "put down" by another.

The Celtic Columban Church, the original Church of Scotland was slowly put down following the Council of Whitby were the Celtic usages were condemned and later the Roman Church squeezed in to take over.

The Roman Church was later deposed by Presbyterianism, although the Scots didn't hack away at one another as CAtholics and Protestants did in other areas of Britain and Eire.

And now there seems to be a return to the Celtic heritage . . .

Who lives by the sword . . .

Alex

[ 09-11-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Anthony,

I don't really know how much of my usual warmth and congeniality affected the Vatican Undersecretary of State!

We were all smiles and sweetness after the excellent luncheon!

He asked me why I didn't become a priest a couple of times and I first tried to flash my wedding band to get him off my case.

I didn't want to start a discussion about the Eastern Rite married priesthood.

Whenever someone comes after me personally about the priesthood, my back gets up against the wall, I start touching my wedding band as I start to look around for the nearest exist out of the room . . .

Don't think I'm insecure about the whole issue, mind you . . .

Doh-re-me-fah-soh-lah-tee-doh . . .

No, I still have a lousy singing voice and that, for me, is a sign from Heaven that I'm meant for other things.

I guess with my instability on the Byzantine Forum, some might say I'm not really meant to be here either . . .

God bless y'a!

Alex

DavidB,
You said: "As for this crud Rum Orthodox, it is nothing but hearsay, it would never stand up in a court of law. I suggest that you start a new thread if you wish to discuss this."

I say: Don't worry I will not sue you and the Roman Catholic Church nor will I take you to court.


You say: "This topic has nothing to do with seminaries, it has to do with what the Church is doing with vocations, how it choses to recognize them or if it even does when the vocation does not fit the mold that the Church has for vocations."

I say: It does. There is a major problem.

You say: "I would submit that one size does not fit all in the case of vocations."

I say: Your philosophical outlook is a bit too late. God does not call the disturbed to the priesthood.

Sir, Alex, Sir:


Angelo Cardinal Sodano is THE Secretary of State of the Vatican. In other words, you were being baited by the head honcho himself!

Perhaps, he saw in you a future compleat Vatican diplomat.


AmdG

I would hope the Catholic Church does not have Vocation Directors who make judgements on cleaning out seminaries based on the interaction a single basketball game provides and uses slurs like "flaming".

Axios, who is not normal

My diocese in Rockford Il. does not have a Seminary but we have the vocations. It is mainly due to our Roman Bishop. Bishop Doran requires of his Seminarians, 1st Holiness. This is the key to a vocation even for Deacons in our Diocese. Last year 50 men requested to be considered for the Deacon Formation Program and presently 17 are still in it and will (with the blessing of God) be ordained next May 2003. Bishop Doran is Orthodox and requires the education and prayer life of his priests and deacons.
A neighboring state had an Archbishop who was not like Bishop Doran in Orthodoxy and had only 4-5 men ordained last year before he retired.
I believe vocations are out their and that the young people are hungry for Orthodox principles and values that many 1960 Priests and some Bishops do not demonstrate. When the Holy Father visited the US in Denver and just resently Toronto, the youth saw not a crippled OLD man but a Father who loves his children and they felt his love. Our Pope is the catalyst and our youth are the new blood for the future of the Catholic Church. Pat cool:

Slava Isusu Christu!

The Vocation crisis is fundamentally based on what our Holy Father has termed "the culture of death." Many people who have vocations to Holy Orders have been damaged, discouraged, and de-moralized by the Devil who is the Chief Adversary of the Sacred Priesthood. Those who are chosen by God to become priests are Satan's main focus of attack. The Catholic teaching on the human person does not allow for terms such as gay or straight, bi or transgendered. These are terms used by the APA et al, BUT the Church sees true reality of the person. Sin is sin. Those who are afflicted by sins and temptations and who are called to the priesthood are not any different then the rest of us. Again we cannot identify ourselves with our sins. If however a person identifies the homosexual temptation as an identity of personhood and desires the priesthood such a one, of course, cannot be considered for candidancy; because they are declaring a sin a way of life which they declare God approves which He could not. But if a person is struggling with this temptation as with any other; one should seek the healing balm of the Mystery of Repentance and fight the good fight. Because of the culture of death many of the Church's children are afflicted with this temptation; it is THE JOB of the Church to instill and inculcate traditional gender roles and behaviors. To form in Her children Godly Manhood and Womanhood. In our modern era She has failed miserably in this regard. Because the culture no longer supports traditional gender roles and attitudes in men and women, boys and girls, it NOW has fallen to the Church to form them in it. Following the example of St. Paul who had his traditions regarding men and women the Church should take the lead in bringing at the least Her Children to the fulness of the understanding of their true identity in Christ Jesus and the vision of a restored human society: the City of God.

The main focuses of the Church in the restoration of Vocations should be 1. The formation of Godly Catholic families, 2. The development and restoration of a traditional culture and understanding of gender roles in light of Gospel Values, 3. The proper catechesis regarding the theology of the body using Pope John Paul II's writings, 4. restoration to the seminary a focus on Mystical and Aescetical Theology and Spiritual formation, 5. Removal of heterodox theologians and teachers in Catholic schools, colleges, universities and seminaries, 6. Removal of heterodox bishops and priests , 7. Restoration of the Liturgy and a de-emphasis on Pastoral Theology and Counseling with a renewal of interest in the patristics.
8. With regard to the Eastern Catholic Churches: a full restoration of the married diaconate and presbyterate. The realization of full autonmony for mature Jurisdictions and the granting of Patriarchates for those who have the tradition and have achieved such a status where having one would be a substantial move and not a mere symbolic one.
9. The renewal of traditional Eastern Monasticism to the fullest extent with the removal of Latin orders within our Church.
10. The development of a sufficient modern method of dealing with current ethics challenges which will work effectively.
11. I.E. Another Ecumenical Council

Vatican II was such a double edged sword that a Dogmatic Council must be convened to go through each of the documents of Vatican II and define once and for all the official interpretation of that Council. Vatican II was the first pastoral Council in 2000 years of Catholic history and as such there needs to be an Ecumenical Council in the true Dogmtic sense to not only do damage control, but also to save the Church. Let us pray the next Pope will have the wisdom to do so. We Eastern Catholics, who are united to Rome and being in Communion with the Latins are to seek their wholeness as well as our own. To say the abuses in Latin Church do not concern us is like saying that because gangrene is only on the foot and we are the arm that it does not concern us. That is why the Orthodox find our witness lacking when we are united to the Latins who are immersed in these things. The Orthodox theology of Communion is fundamentally based on the truth that one cannot remain Orthodox and be in communion with heretics. What they see from the Latins is modernism, heresy, liturical Abuses and atrocities et al. If we are going to be united with the Orthodox, and have full communion, that cannot be done without the Latins. What use is it for us to restore all of our traditions and look fully Orthodox and be in communion with the Latin Church down the street who has altar girls, EEM's, abuses of all kinds, not to mention the heterodox preaching and praxis being promoted. Our witness is not complete without the Latins. We sink or swim with them as long as we remain in communion with them. If they are the Titanic then why are we re-arranging the deck chairs. Does it not make sense to just become Orthodox if we have the mentality that their problem is not ours. To the Orthodox they find the fact we remain in communion with the Latins the most scadalous thing because of all their modernism and abuses. So again for those of us who remain in the communion of the Catholic Church our twin goals are to be not only the restoration of our venerable traditions, but also the restoration of the traditions of the Latins. The Vatican can no longer talk our of both sides of its mouth when it says that is seeks the restoration of our ancient Traditions and then has created a fabricated almost Protestant liturgy for her people calling that the restoration of the Roman Rite; there must be a true restoration of the Gregorian Liturgy for the Latins for their Witness to the Orthodox to be sure. Since for the Orthodox the Liturgy is the defense of Orthodoxy par excellence to one day be in Communion with the Latins and therefore with us, the Orthodox would have to see the total restoration of the Ancient Gregorian Liturgy and be done with this aggioramento and experientation and appeasement of the Protestants for the sake of a false ecumenism which is out of continuity with 1962 years of developed Catholic teaching on Church Unity. The Catholic Church has always affirmed that within Her bosom there ALREADY was the fullness of UNITY.

So let us pray for another Council.

In Christ,

Robert

Yesterday a year ago, God received into heaven His servant, Father Mychal Judge, who defined himself as gay and as an alcoholic.

While respecting conflicting opinions, I do not consider Father Judge an unworthy priest.

Axios, who is not normal

I find it very distressing that a priest would chose to identify himself with something that is gravely disordered at best, a mortal sin at worst.

We would all be appaled at a priest that chose to identify himself as a murder and a priest, a pedophile and a priest, or a theif and a priest.

It is the same.

Now that this thread has been hijacked into areas that were not intended to go I would request that the administrator or one of the other moderators to close this thread.

David

Slava Isusu Christu!

Regardless of what Father Judge did or did not declare regarding his sexuality that is not our business. He is with his Master now for his valiant service and sacrifice on 9/11. Eternal Memory and Blessed Repose to the servant of the Lord Father Judge.

In Christ,


Robert

That was very beautiful, Robert.


May Father Judge intercede for those on earth who loved him and for those who hated him.

Axios

True, to a point Robert, it will come into play if there is ever a move to attempt to cannonize the man.

That being said, I did not bring up anyting about his or anyone elses sexuality. This was done by Axios who seems to have a set adgenda.

This thread was started, not to discuss our seminaries or sexuality in any way.

It was started to discuss the apparent move by the Church to want to shoe horn all vocations into a mold that they have and to ignore those that do not fit.


David