www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West A few questions from a new guy

Just trying to get the Eastern perspective on a few things. I've noticed in reading Eastern stuff that I am having a lot of difficulty tracking down theological differences (outside of that papacy thing, of course). I've read a good bit of the Early Fathers on both sides as well, so feel free to cite liberally if need be.

1. Orthodox vs. Catholic views on Original Sin- The thing I've noticed here (and it's dealt with in another thread on this board) is that the perceived disagreement arises mainly from the notion that the Catholic position = verbatim the Augustinian position. The other thread seems to confirm this. Am I far off?

2. Mary- I've had some Eastern brethren tell me that there is a lesser emphasis onthe BVM in the East. I'd never heard that until recently. I am aware of the Immaculate Conception differences, but I thought that was more an outgrowth of my first question than anything else.

I'm going to leave it at that for now, but I've got some more I'll be posting later.

Actually - and I am hardly alone in this - I would say that there is a notably GREATER emphasis on Mary in the Christian East.
Incognitus

Dear DrTeeth,

Did you know that Ukrainian immigrants couldn't pronounce "Redemptorist" so they called them "Dentrists?"

The Reverend Father Incognitus is quite correct.

The Ukrainian and Russian Churches have about 1,000 miraculous icons of the Mother of God (and their miraculous copies) between them.

There are more feasts and more copious prayers to the Mother of God in the rich liturgical traditions of the East than ANYTHING that one could find in the West.

The West basically has the Rosary (which we have as a private devotion too) and the litanies.

That is nowhere near the glorious liturgical tradition that is the Christian East.

And we, in the Byzantine East, pray: Most Holy Mother of God, save us!

I know RC's who have balked at that . . .

We don't adhere to the Immaculate Conception because we have ALWAYS celebrated her Sanctification in the womb of her mother, St Anne on the feast of the Conception of ST Anne that began in the East in the sixth century.

(And we don't accept the West's Original Sin viewpoint(s))

We pray to her during the Divine Liturgy and invoke her intercessions constantly - I understand that the West is allowed to invoke only God at the Altar, correct?

Alex

DrTeeth, You wrote:

[2. Mary- I've had some Eastern brethren tell me that there is a lesser emphasis onthe BVM in the East. I'd never heard that until recently. I am aware of the Immaculate Conception differences, but I thought that was more an outgrowth of my first question than anything else.]
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Haven't been around the Eastern block all that long but don't believe I have yet heard, Mary the Mother of God, referred to as the BVM or Blessed Virgin Mary . Maybe that is what they meant?? She is usually referred to as the Theotokos , which means the Mother of God
However, the term Virgin certainly is used often especially in icons such as: 'The Virgin of the Sign', 'The Virgin Hodigitria', 'The Virgin of Tenderness of Vladimir,'The Belozersk Virgin of Tenderness', etc.

Welcome to the forum.

Porter aka Mary Jo

Alex yousaid:
(And we don't accept the West's Original Sin viewpoint(s))

I'd be interested in hearing some of your interaction with some of my articulations of original sin.

Another point, are you still a member of the Eastern Catholic Church or are you just curently disgusted with Rome?

Daniel

Dear Daniel,

I'm just currently disgusted with Rome.

Where are your articulations on Original Sin?

And do they have your bishop's "Imprimatur?"

I just feel I need to be careful whenever I read Latin theology nowadays . . .

Alex

Alex,

No my work on Augustine doesn't have an "imprimatur" but I am a student in theology, and I do have a good grasp of Augustine's soteriology. I don't think we necessarily need that for us to have good mature scholarly interaction, do you?

You can see some of my thoughts here on page 2 and 3: https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001125;p=2

I'll post a new thread, since it is out of scope with this one.

Daniel

Dear Daniel,

Kidding, Big Guy, just kidding!

You do indeed have a scholarly grasp of Augustine. I wish I had one too!

But when Eastern theologians look at the Immaculate Conception and the Western view of Original Sin, they really take "stain of" at face value.

Be it as it may, the East has an ancient feast of the "Conception of St Anne" which means that it affirms the Holy Conception of the Mother of God. As one RC translation of the Litany of Loreto states, "Conceived in Holiness."

Although the East rejects the idea of inherited guilt or however the West understands it, it sees the Conception of the Most Holy Virgin Mary as a moment when the Spirit truly sanctified her and bestowed His Gifts upon her from her very beginning. The Spirit came upon her also at the Annunciation and at Pentecost and at her Dormition. She is the Temple of the Holy Spirit like none other!

In addition, the Byzantine East also celebrates the Feast of the Holy Conception of St John the Baptist in a similar manner.

This is one reason why there is no Feast of the Visitation in the Byzantine East as there was no need to underline the Baptist's sanctification in the womb of his mother at the time of the Visitation. For the East, he was already sanctified at his conception.

Alex

Dr. Alex

Thanks for your reply. I understand where you are coming from. However, my contention, and you can see it in my dialogue in the thread I posted perhaps, that there is a fundamental distinction in nature with the kind of guilt that is associated with original sin and that of personal fault. Most EC's and EO's read the latter into the former in Augustine. Augustine, had something else in mind I believe. Perhaps a special insite that Augustine had, since he had a very nuanced view of sin and punishment.

Daniel

Dear Daniel,

I've no wish to "de-canonize" St Augustine!

However one understands the impact of Original Sin on our nature, and it wasn't a good one (!), the Eastern Church has always believed the Spirit completely sanctified the souls of the Mother of God and of St John the Baptist at their Conception.

By tradition, St John the Theologian and St Nicholas the Wonderworker were also sanctified at their Conception (as is indicated in the Akathists etc.). I know there is a tradition in the West that holds to the view that St Joseph also had an Immaculate Conception.

Alex

What does the East mean by the "sanctification in the womb" language? How does this differ from Immacualte Conception? Or are we drifting back to the Original Sin topic?

Also, does the East teach that Mary was sinless? I've heard Orthodox claims of yes and no. One even said that Mary was sinning when she wanted Jesus to change the water to wine.

What say you all?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

"Also, does the East teach that Mary was sinless? I've heard Orthodox claims of yes and no. One even said that Mary was sinning when she wanted Jesus to change the water to wine. "

One of the titles for the Theotokos in the Byzantine liturgies is "PANAGIA," "All-holy one." It is the consistent teaching of the Eastern Church that Mary was sinless through her whole life.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Professor Thompson should check Saint JOhn Chrysostom on the Holy Theotokos at the wedding in Cana -he could be in for a surprise.
Alex -do you suppose we could create a Byzantine Index of Prohibited Books?
Incognitus

Incognitus,

In his Homily on the Wedding at Cana, St John Chrysostom does not impute guilt of sin to the Mother of the Lord. By His words to His Mother, Christ was teaching her a moral lesson.

The Mother of God was sinless but that does not mean that she did not become more perfected as she journeyed through life. Imperfection in knowledge is not equal to sin.

The fact that She was born the same way all of us are born, and that she was confronted by temptation and was able to overcome sin makes Her all the more worthy of our veneration as head of all Saints.

JoeS