www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West A few questions from a new guy

Alex - During the Eucharistic prayers in the Roman Liturgy, the priest prays for the intercession of Mary & the saints. I've been attending Divine Liturgy too long to think of the wording off the top of my head, though. :p

From Eucharistic Prayer I [catholicliturgy.com] (Roman Canon):

Courtesy of the Catholic Liturgical Library. [catholicliturgy.com]

Dear Friends,

Yes, the Saints are commemorated in the Roman Canon - but can they be DIRECTLY invoked as is done in the Byzantine Liturgy following the Canon?

Alex

Alex,
I know that for memorials the saint of the day is invoked during the collects of the Mass. I'm not sure but the priest might have the option to invoke other saints as well, for instance the local patrion. I think they can also be invoked during the Prayers of the Faithful. At our parish we pray for St. Joseph's intercession during the Prayers of the Faithful at every Mass for a special intention of our parish. I read somewhere that in the U.K. it is common practice for the people to recite a Hail Mary together at this point in the Mass. During the the Penitential Rite Our Lady and the saints are also invoked. In the old Mass it was explicitly Our Lady and saints John the Baptist, Michael the Archangel, Peter, and Andrew during the Confiteor.

JoeS

Glory to Jesus Christ!

<<The fact that She was born the same way all of us are born, and that she was confronted by temptation and was able to overcome sin makes Her all the more worthy of our veneration as head of all Saints.>>

<<born the same way all of us are born>>
This is not consistent with the tradition of the Church. The prayers for the feasts of the Theotokos' own conception and of her nativity indicate that, indeed she was born "like the rest of us", from a mother and father, but her conception and birth were miraculous. Look at the prayers. She is also never spoken of as ever being a sinner. She was victorious over temptation, but she never had to get over sinful ways because she did not sin. She always cooperated with the will of God, met with frustrations and difficulties yes, but in the end always surrendered to the will of God. As I said before this does not mean that she was a static being, devoid of free will, but a godly woman, graced, who advanced in her knowledge and surrender to God, who advanced from grace to grace in the dynamic influence of the Holy Spirit. The faith of the Church is reflected in the liturgy of the Church. Let's continue to believe what we pray!

Dear Friends,

Just a note to say Lazareno is right.

DrTeeth's earlier question - how does sanctification in the womb differ from the doctrine of Immaculate Conception bears consideration.

The IC doctrine basically states that from the moment of her conception in the womb of St Anne (Happy St Anne's day, New Calendarists!) the Mother of God was preserved free of the stain of Original Sin.

However Latin Catholics understand "stain," the point is the Mother of God was protected from it.

Augustini said that the only thing the Immaculate Mother of God was not protected from was mortality.

And from the Eastern point of view, the fact that she died meant that she HAD Original Sin - although not in terms of a "stain."

Both East and West believe the Mother of God NEVER to have even been in the shadow of sin as a result of her exalted role as Mother of Christ our God.

Original Sin in the East has to do with the incurring of death etc.

That the Mother of God was sanctified at her Conception means that she was completely All-Holy and that her sanctification mitigated the effects of Original Sin on her human nature.

In other words, she felt no pain in giving birth to Christ our God. And her own death was so light and sweet that the Church rightly calls it a "falling asleep" or "Dormition."

The Mother of God experienced several such sanctifications by the Spirit in her life one earth - at her Annunciation and at Pentecost, as examples.

From the Eastern POV, she and the saints continue to grow in sanctification and closeness to God even in Heaven.

Alex

Dear Manuel:

So, In California you pray the Eucharistic Prayer I? gee you are very lucky!!! Down here in Mexico it is no longer prayed, in fac in the new missals it doesn's even appear within the Ordinary of the Mass. I heard it for the first time once I went to a SSPX mass.

Since I've been going to the Divine Liturgy is amazing how my love for the Theotokos has grown, Eastern love for Her is wonderful.

In Christ.

I play for a RC parish that frequently uses Eucharistic Prayer I. But in other places I have visited, it seemed to depend on the priest. At one mass I attended, the priest must have been using Eucharistic Prayer 37B, since I had never heard it before.

I went to a Latin Mass with a Coptic Catholic friend last weekend. I seem to remember that intercessions from Mary and the saints were specifically asked in the beginning of the Mass.

Blessings,
Marduk

Orthodox Catholic is hitting on something here that I don't understand. Help please!

[And from the Eastern point of view, the fact that she died meant that she HAD Original Sin - although not in terms of a "stain."]

[Original Sin in the East has to do with the incurring of death etc.]

Somebody please break this down for me. I've been looking for the distinctions btw. East and West on this for a while and have been very unsuccessful. Reading stuff like the Anaphora of St. Basil doesn't seem to point to much of a difference. However, the above statements make me think otherwise.

First, they appear to be inconsistent, although this is probably more my fault in not understanding the context.

Second, the only concrete thing I've ever been able to come up with as a difference is a presentation of Augustine's theory and the theory of the West on Original Sin as having to do with personal liability (like a lawsuit, I guess) rather than defects in human nature.

How far off-base am I?

There's a nice little passage in St. Therese of Lisieux's book, "Story of a Soul", in which she describes two children - one has fallen over a stone in the road, and his father immediately runs over, picks him up, comforts him and helps him get over the injury.

Which is basically what happens with all of us - "original sin" is the stone that we all stumble over, and our Father runs to help us.

But the second child doesn't fall over the stone at all, because his father saw it in his path, and went ahead and removed the stone. Which is basically what happened with the Virgin Mary - God removed the stone from her path before she had a chance to fall over it.

In both cases, God has saved us from sin - it's just that in the case of the Virgin Mary, He saved her before it had a chance to hurt her at all.

Enter my $.02 worth

The way I understand all of this is John1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If we truly believe John 1:3, then would God have created anything less than a perfect unblimished womb? But look at that verse. God is the Creator, Jesus did the creating...he created the womb of his mother.

If God took so much trouble to build the Ark of the Covenant(Exodus 25:10-22 below) so that no man could touch it, well...It contained the mana from heaven, the Ten Commandments, and Rod of Aaron which bloomed. Is this not all the forshadowing of Christ?

Then take it one step further, he had Abraham bring an unblimished lamb for sacrafice. Well, to me, his Son, could not be born in anyone with blimish!

Why then would God want anything less for the flesh of his Son to dwell in? Just an old Southern Baptist telling you how she figured out the Theotokos.

Pani Rose

John1:3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Now we look at the Ark of the Covenant Exodus 25:10-22
Exodus 25:10-22
10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.
11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.
12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it.
13 And thou shalt make staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold.
14 And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, that the ark may be borne with them.
15 The staves shall be in the rings of the ark: they shall not be taken from it.
16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.


The Ark was first destined to contain the testimony, that is to say the tables of the Law (Ex., xl, 18; Deut., x, 5). Later, Moses was commanded to put into the tabernacle, near the Ark, a golden vessel holding a gomor of manna (Ex., xvi, 34), and the rod of Aaron which had blossomed (Num., xvii, 10)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01721a.htm

Dear Bernardo,
I am happy that you can attend Divine Liturgy and it is wonderful that your love for the Blessed Mother has grown.

As ByzanTn wrote, which Eucharistic Prayer is used is up to the priest. I've known some, like a former pastor, who used the Roman Canon frequently. I've known others who seem to use it rarely.

To be honest I'm surprised you've never heard it used before. I've traveled to Mexico since I was a baby to visit family and the last visit was several months last year (including Mexico City).

I can't remember exactly which prayers were used on my last visit but I'd be surprised if Eucharistic Prayer I wans't used at least once. Maybe it just happens to be the parishes you've attended? The priest does have some options during Mass.

I've bought missals on other visits, the kind that have the sunday readings for an entire year, and I could swear they included the first Eucharistic Prayer. I'll have to check. But first I have to find them, since they're buried under piles of stuff and I haven't even finished unpacking from last year's visit. :rolleyes:

Manuel, who needs to stop being such a packrat.