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St. Nicholas� Relics Given to Moscow Patriarchate


MOSCOW, MAR. 13, 2001 (Zenit.org).- A delegation of the Catholic Archdiocese of Bari, Italy, gave the Russian Orthodox Patriarchate relics of St. Nicholas, a gesture seen in Moscow as a sign of good will by the Holy See.

The relics of Russia's patron, kept in a small coffer, were handed over Monday to Patriarch Alexis II, during a ceremony in the Danilovski Monastery, seat of the patriarchate. The relics will be placed in the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, principal place of worship of the Russian Orthodox Church.

ZE01031309

I think that's great. Of course, I would also think any sort of reciprical gesture on the part of Moscow would be great, too. But I'm not holding my breath

[I think that's great. Of course, I would also think any sort of reciprical gesture on the part of Moscow would be great, too. But I'm not holding my breath.]

Or we can consider it a return to the Orthodox of stolen property. Considering the fact that the relics were stolen by the RCC in the first place by them breaking into the church in the middle of the night and tearing up the floor to steal the body and take it to Bari.

Great Robert! So you're ready for the rest of our Greek Catholic Churches to be handed over, right?

anastasios

I think you meant to say that the relics were stolen by people who were Roman Catholics. There is a difference. I don't think the whole Roman Catholic Church could have fit in the city let alone everyone in the church to steal them.

Also, the Orthodox are not guilty of any crimes against the Catholic Church? Must be nice to be so pure.

Your little brother in Christ,
David

[This message has been edited by dbalok (edited 03-14-2001).]

Robert, I certainly don't condone what people did to apropriate St. Nicholas' relics. However, I think the returning of them was the good will gesture. I hope it gives impetus to the Moscow Patriarchate to engage in similar acts of good will. I am sure there are SOME sins for the Russian Church to atone for, maybe even some towards the Catholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Basically, my point was that the Catholic Church has been making overtures towards the Russain Patriarchate for a while now and I haven't seen any sort of return gesture on their part (I could be wrong and just uninformed on this matter). Guess I just rubbed you the wrong way, eh?

[Basically, my point was that the Catholic Church has been making overtures towards the Russain Patriarchate for a while now and I haven't seen any sort of return gesture on their part (I could be wrong and just uninformed on this matter). Guess I just rubbed you the wrong way, eh?]

Not really. The point I'm trying to make is that it's like me stealing a diamond necklace and then deciding to return one or two diamonds from that necklace back to it's original owner while keeping the rest. (a few years back the RCC returned one of St Nicholas fingers back to the GOA here in the U.S.). And then having someone saying I should be grateful for receiving only one or two diamonds rather than the whole necklace which belonged to me in the first place.

It is a nice jesture but it desn't even the score.

As far as the other replies....We are talking about stolen relics here. If someone can give me a relic that the Orthodox stole from the RCC, then let's discuss it.

>>>As far as the other replies....We are talking about stolen relics here. If someone can give me a relic that the Orthodox stole from the RCC, then let's discuss it.


I am sure that the churches that the Orthodox receieved from the dissolution of the Eastern Catholics had relics in them. Hence Orthodox have relics that belong to Catholics, too.

anastasios

[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 03-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 03-14-2001).]

>>>I am sure that the churches that the Orthodox receieved from the dissolution of the Eastern Catholics had relics in them. Hence Orthodox have relics that belong to Catholics, too.

anastasios<<<


I agree, lets return all those relics and property real or other wise that each of our churches have stolen from each other. I've always believed that when you steal something, even if you repent of the sin it isnt forgiven until that item or items or something compensatory have been returned. Having said that I cant help but imagine what St. Marks in Venice would look like if she had to return all those items from the crusades. Just thinking out loud.
JoeS

>>Basically, my point was that the Catholic Church has been making overtures towards the Russain Patriarchate for a while now and I haven't seen any sort of return gesture on their part (I could be wrong and just uninformed on this matter). Guess I just rubbed you the wrong way, eh?<<

>Not really. The point I'm trying to make is that it's like me stealing a diamond necklace and then deciding to return one or two diamonds from that necklace back to it's original owner while keeping the rest. (a few years back the RCC returned one of St Nicholas fingers back to the GOA here in the U.S.). And then having someone saying I should be grateful for receiving only one or two diamonds rather than the whole necklace which belonged to me in the first place.<

Perhaps you should realize that things that happened in the past will never be "made up for" in the sense that they will be the same again. Even if the Pope gave back everything that once belonged to the Orthodox (maybe you have a list you could give him) would it then be alright? Probably not, because it didn't change the fact that people sinned in the past. So what WILL make things better? I have read some of your previous posts Robert. In candor, I don't think that you'd consider anything "enough."

>It is a nice jesture but it desn't even the score.<

I didn't know "evening the score" was something Christ commanded us to do. It certainly wasn't something He did. Frankly in JUSTICE the entire world should have been obliterated after the Sin of Adam. God kept the world intact until the fullness of time when He would redeem it.

I am not sure why you are keping this grudge. I can only hope that you are waiting for your own fullness of time to forgive the Catholics. God knows we have a lot to be forgiven for.

>As far as the other replies....We are talking about stolen relics here. If someone can give me a relic that the Orthodox stole from the RCC, then let's discuss it.<

I find this answer to be ridiculous. Risking uncharity, I have to ask you if you have even considered the possibility of there being relics which belonged to Russian and Ukranian Catholics before they were focibly united with the Russian Orthodox. What about holy icons, Churches, etc.? I am sure that all of these things were willing turned over to the Orthodox.

Sure you can say that only relics should be considered because relics are what were returned by Rome. However, the Pope has given the Orthodox a church in Rome to use. I don't see anything of the sort being done by the Orthodox for Catholics in lands with EO majorities (hey, even a church that didn't originally belong to Catholics hasn't been given).

What's the point? Trying to stir up more bad feelings? Nope. Trying to show you that at least the Catholic Church is trying to mend fences. Do I expect reciprocity from the Orthodox? Not on a human level, but I have Hope.

We could carry this further but it's Lent. So let me close by stating that -

It's a nice jesture and I'm sure appreciated even though it will not be complete until the entire body is back in the original owner's hands.

And, to the person that asked, I can provide a partial list of the relics that were stolen from the Orthodox during the 4th crusade and now are in Roman Catholic Cathedral's and libraries throughout the West. Especially the Vatican and Venice. Not to mention quite a few in France and of course those that were destroyed.

The entire Roman Catholic Church may not have broken into the Orthodox Church to steal St Nicholas body, but the entire Catholic Church accepted that stolen property once it arrived in Bari.

Bob

How were the Russians (who were Christianized in the 10th Century) the "original owners" of a saint's body from the 4th Century?

I'd say: Give Nick back to the Greeks.

Joe

[I'd say: Give Nick back to the Greeks.

Joe]

I agree!!!!

Dear Friends,

Just got back from N'Awlins Louisiana and read this thread.

It is true that Italians from Bari took the Relics of St Nicholas by breaking through the stone Ark and removing them. The whole in the Ark is still visible.

Was this a theft? Certainly, Relics were stolen etc.

But this act by those Italians was NEVER, let me say this one more time, NEVER, considered an act of aggression against Orthodoxy by the Orthodox Church itself.

There is an Orthodox liturgical service for May 9/22 to commemorate the TRANSLATION of the Relics of St Nicholas (not "theft") to Bari.

This Feast is today called the Feast of "Warm Nicholas" in Ukraine and Russia where it became a National holiday, together with the Feast of the Holy Protection.

The Service itself sings about how St Nichola has now become a source of healing in the "Roman lands."

Absent from it is ANY indication that Orthodoxy was upset by the removal of the Holy Relics from an area controlled by the Turks.

There are Relics stolen from the Orthodox East. They should be returned.

The relics of St Nicholas are NOT in that same category.

God bless,

Alex