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I would like to add a few thoughts...

In the world of the future, that is of course if God allows this sickness to progress any further, there will be very few Christians left, very much like now. Many will be so in name but most will have ceased to believe in the truth and therefore the Church. They may function with the outward form of all the varying heretical traditions and profess a love for God, but still most will not be willing to sacrifice everything for it. Peace, tolerance, "understanding" will be the call signs of the syncretistic soceity that will value nothing higher than it's own collective ideals.

Murder, unrest, hate, distrust, guns, bombings, nuclear missles, revolutions, drug adicts, and vanity are not evil, they are symtoms of evil because evil is NOTHING but corruption. Remove the corruption of the mind and you will instantly see all these things disappear.

This is why heresy is the root of all evil and why the Holy Fathers were so "intolerant". All things that are not given to us by God are given to us by Satan which is why heresy is the mother of all that afflicts us today.

Yes, Rum Orthodox is correct, the pope speaks out of both sides of his mouth because he is not an ecumenist, he is like many "Orthodox" today, he is a syncretist. He speaks of the desire to have "peace with his brothers who worship the same God" which is just ecu-speak to say that while he may have a high regard for Christ, peace of mankind is more important. If he truly loved his Muslim brothers he would want to cure them from their corruption instead of deluding them along with his own followers into believing through his vague and fashionable statements that we all worship the same God, which is blashphemy.

As Christ Himself said, nobody can approach the Father except through the Son. Likewise, nobody can approach the Son except through the Church because the Church is where the truth is.

" It developed based on syncretism of various religious and cultural models before it."

Many historians of religion, anthropologists, etc., believe the same about Christianity as well as Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions.

A priori "proofs" aside, all of us cling to our religions by faith. I don't know about you, but the "fact of faith" makes me a bit humble about making sweeping statements about the authenticity of my neighbor's "faith."

"And say, 'It is the truth from the Lord, therefore let him who wishes believe and let him who wishes (otherwise) disbelieve.'" 18:29.

Abdur

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Rum Orthodox has some points. As long as Islam see's the West as being the World of War there is little chance fo peace. May I suggest that you read Bat Ye'ors "The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam: Jihad" and her prior book "The Dhimmi". Until we speak frankly to each other we are not showing repect. During the first Halocaust Moslems killed off the Christian and Jewish Native Peoples of the Middle East and N. Africa in the first Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing over a one thousand year period. Only a small number of native people survived Jihad. The first victims were the Christian Arabs at Petra who were the Guardins of the Desert. Islam cut off thier water in ecological warfare that set the tread for Islams future conquests. I have heard various figures of between 60 million to 300 million people murdered over one thousand years.

Why is it not politicly correct to research or discuss this. When one takes this genocide into account you can see how the Crusaders saw themselves as a rescue team or police swat team. One can see why one Crusade was aimed at Egypt to rescue the Copt's. Now the excess of the Crusades many times resulted in the death of fellow Christians as they were the majority population in the Middle East and N. Africa at the time of the Crusades.

A good first step is for Islam to denounce the world of war concept. A second is to admit Islams role in the first genocide. A third would be the renouncation of violence. Fourth freedom of religion. The reason that Osama bin Laden is held in high esteem is that he is a good Moslem. Now do not get me wrong there are wonderful Moslems people but ideas make or break a society. Islam has not undergone the scholarly critical deconstruction that Christianity has survived. I am not sure Islam can survive that examination.

For the Moslem world to survive it has to be competive and have a knowledge orientation that it's current rulers avoid. Why is Pakistan a third world failure while Pakistani's are so successful here in the US and Europe. Freedom and rights of property will allow Islam to enter the 21 century. Seeking thier 6th or 7th century roots is the road of failure and dooms millions to hellish lives.

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Angelus ]

[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Angelus ]

The Muslim population is one billion. Out of that one billion, Arabs are a minority. You will find yourself with a truncated and limited view of Islam if you assume Arabia is representative of all of Islam.

I take exception to your point of view that bin Ladin is considered a good Muslim. Actually, the opposite is true since he is considered a self-serving renegade. At this time, the real heros of Islam are the Afghan fighters who have rid there country of Talibanism, at a very high cost in killed and wounded.

Both Christians and Muslims are guilty of slaughter, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. In fact the West is responsible for making war a science and art and has a long history of perpetual warfare and is at the pinnacle of war casualities suffered and afflicted over hundreds of years of almost constant slaughter. I am afraid the genocide committed by Europeans upon the indigenous peoples of the Americas ( in the name of God, of course!) far exceeds our blood lust, but I am not in the business of rationalizing slaughter by comparing casuality lists. But I agree that Christians and Muslims should be in the frontlines of those struggling in the war on war.

Islam has survived deconstruction many times over...and we are a rapidly growing faith with many converts being drawn to Islam from regions of this good earth where previously there was only a very small Islamic presence. It is obvious that these converts are able to separated the chaff from the wheat and they realize there is much more to Islam than what is happening in Palestine, Afghanistan, or the Arab world, for example. They also know that the real Islam is what is experienced in the here and now; not in the past or the future. And certainly, from the media you will, by and large, only glimpse a very narrow and distorted version of Islam. Our huge advantage is that Muhammed is just a human..subject to the weaknesses of other humans.

That is why many European and Russian converts are drawn to Islam and why we have literally hundreds of Islamic missionary groups and tens of thousands of converts. We must be doing something right!

Glory to God!

Inshallah, we will not only survive but flourish. ( And our Balkan communities are growing, even after the genocidal attempts by Serbs and Croats to exterminate us. Of course, Allah had other plans. And Bulgarian Muslims who have been forced to "convert" to Orthodoxy over the last few generations are following the example of other Bulgarian Muslims and are returning to Islam. Allahuh Akbar!)

Abdur

Dear Rum Orthodox and Orthodoxy to Death,

In your zeal to share your version of reality, you have said things like the Roman Church speaks out of both sides of its mouth supporting relativism and that the Pope is syncretistic.

In doing so, in my opinion, you once again step beyond the bounds of discussion behavior proper to a Catholic site. If you have evidence of the Pope urging syncretism or evidence of the Roman Church speaking relativistic doctrine out of its mouth, then please produce it. Present it openly and do not present your inferrences as fact. Do not argue to prove it. Present the teaching and the words which say it. Do not take them out of context.

Failing that, I believe that it is improper for you to continue to repeat these assertions. In making inaccurate statements and presenting specious arguments based on your understanding or view, you insult the Chruch to which I belong and you malign the person who is the sign of Communion among the Catholic Churches. In doing so you malign also the Eastern and Oriental Catholics who share that Communion with him.

You are making and repeating inaccurate statements about the teachings of the Latin Church, the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, and the Pope. I regret and oppose the presentation of your personal judgements of our Churches' teachings and of the Pope. I do so because, in my opinion, the judgements are based on your personal reflection and relativly convoluted reasoning with minimal reference to objective information.

I hope that you will continue to post here so that you will come to understand what the Churches of the Catholic Communion believe and teach. It is not what you present as Catholic teaching when you say it teaches relativism. As you listen to what the Pope says I hope that you will hear in his words the Savior's call that all might be one in Him. That, of course is not relativism.

That being so, I look forward to the day when you will join in ecumenical and interfaith dialogue to try to understand what God is doing in His Freedom from our constraints.

Relatively speaking, of course!

Fraternally,
Steve

JOY!

Steve,
It is not my intention to lie and make a mockery out of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church. I am sorry if you think this way. IMO, I am expressing the perceived reality of your Church. Perhaps this present reality will change. Perhaps it wont. I am not trusting of Papacy and for many good reasons. Believe me I would love to trust your church and catholicism but something tells me not to. Our divisions are great. There is no good in pretending that everything is okay. I have expressed in many posts my disatisfaction but I refuse to leave hoping I can learn from the various people. At times I enjoy the interactions and sometimes I dont. I am blunt and forward in my beliefs and I know others dont care for my tone. I will speak out against any type of injustices committed by anyone regardless of their religious affiliations. Know that I have a heart of gold like you despite our differences. I like you Steve. I think you are a great person. What I feel for Catholicism is not as great as I feel for you.

Abdur,
Christ our God be upon you,

It's a shame that you entrust your salvation in the hands of the man Muhammed rather than in Christ who is God in the human flesh of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Allah cannot be great for the Muslims since Islam continues denying Allah had lived amongst us in the human flesh and still ruled the universe. Muslims continue fomenting that Allah cannot become man & limit Allah as to what He can and cannot do. How is it that you as Muslims believe that the Quran is the uncreated word of God and not be worshipping two Allahs? We all know that Allah is Uncreated but how is He in relation to the Quran which is said to be Uncreated? Do you believe in Ruh Allah(Spirit of Allah) in reference to Jesus in the Quran and I am not talking about the spirit of an archangel? Is Ruh Allah uncreated? If you can answer yes then you and the Muslims would have a deep respect and admiration of the mysterious holy Trinity.

Christ broke the bondage of sin & death. He became the Resurrected Lord not subject to death and gave us Himself to have everlasting life. Does this resemble the likes of Muhammed? What did Muhammed have to offer & do that Christ did not already do?

Imagine the word of Allah (kalimat Allah) taking the flesh of the Virgin Mary by the power of His Holy Spirit(Ruh al-Qodis)! Is not Allah's Spirit holy and mysterious?! Are not the operations of Allah mysterious and awesome? This is the underlying mysterious truth of the Christian faith. Muhammed was not born of a virgin nor the uncreatd word and spirit of Allah. Big difference wouldn't you say?! Think & pray about it before you start with the Islamic polemics and this mad rush to becoming Muslim.

Memo, I had to comment on a couple of things you said.


While true, that Islamic fundamentalists relation to Islam could be compared to the KKK's relation to Christianity there is a big difference.

The KKK is a fringe group where the Islamic fundamentalists are very close to the majority, or are the majority, in many countries and seem to exist where ever there is a sizable Islamic population. As far as I know the KKK is only in the USA and is a very small group even there.

As for the Qur'an being better than HBO. I do not agree, IMHO I think it is no better and could be worse than HBO. I have never heard of HBO causing someone to leave Christianity.

We may agree that the Qur'an is not the Word of God, but we must look to the claims of the Qur'an and of Islam. They both claim that it is the Word of God.

So, we have four choices.
1) It is the Word of God.
2) It is the ramblings of a crazy man who thinks it is the Word of God.
3) It is an out right lie of a man who knows it's not the Word of God but claims that it is.
4) It was written by a man deceived into believing that it was the Word of God.

I do not know if you have read any of the Qur'an, but I have not found any of it to be of any spiritual benefit for a Christian.

If you can find the Qur'an to be spiritually edifying then why not the Holy writings of the Hindus or the Buddhists?


David

Inawe,

Is'nt ecumenism the effort to bring separated Christians back to the true faith?

Or is it just a forum to listen where all the heresies get dressed up and decked out in an attractive cover so it might be swallowed.

There is no need for interfaith dialog unless someone wants to listen to me confess the faith. And everything I need to know can be read about.

How long do you suppose St. Photius or St. Mark of Ephesis would last in an ecumenical dialog before they were shunned as "narrow minded"? All those who pay tribute to these great Saints ought to ask themselves if they too may be talking out of both sides of their mouth.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

As'salam aleikhum,

1) The majority of Muslims are NOT fundamentalists.

Your assumption that the majority of Muslims are "fundamentalists" is (from an Islamic perspective) a laughable error in logic. If the majority of Muslims are fundamendalists, why do the "fundamentalists" consider the majority of Muslims to be "apostates?"

2) Fundamentalist is not a synonym for terrorist. Some of the fighters who died destroying Talibanism and al Qaidi could be labeled "fundamentalist," but to also label them "terrorists" would be uncharitable and inaccurate.

Abdur

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Rum Orthodox and Death or Orthodoxy,

Thank you for messages which were most courteous in expression. Please be assured that I hold you in high regard and in prayerful love. I mean that.

I must repeat though that:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your zeal to share your version of reality, you have said things like the Roman Church speaks out of both sides of its mouth supporting relativism and that the Pope is syncretistic.

In doing so, in my opinion, you once again step beyond the bounds of discussion behavior proper to a Catholic site. If you have evidence of the Pope urging syncretism or evidence of the Roman Church speaking relativistic doctrine out of its mouth, then please produce it. Present it openly and do not present your inferrences as fact. Do not argue to prove it. Present the teaching and the words which say it. Do not take them out of context.

Failing that, I believe that it is improper for you to continue to repeat these assertions. In making inaccurate statements and presenting specious arguments based on your understanding or view, you insult the Chruch to which I belong and you malign the person who is the sign of Communion among the Catholic Churches. In doing so you malign also the Eastern and Oriental Catholics who share that Communion with him.

You are making and repeating inaccurate statements about the teachings of the Latin Church, the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, and the Pope. I regret and oppose the presentation of your personal judgements of our Churches' teachings and of the Pope. I do so because, in my opinion, the judgements are based on your personal reflection and relatively convoluted reasoning with minimal reference to objective information.

_______________________________________________________________________________


It is one thing to perceive reality. All of us do that. However not every perception is an accurate or even a close depiction of the reality that stands behind it. When a perception is distorted, others who care about us try to help us to have a clearer image of the truth.

Catholic posters here have presented reality over an over again in carefully documented responses that clarify the fact that the Catholic Churches do not preach or practice relativism. They have shared information about the Pope which shows that he does not encourage or believe in syncretism.

The perception about the Catholic Churches in the area under discussion that you continually present is a distortion. I am asking that you provide the indisputable objective evidence for your judgements. If there is not documentable evidence, then your statements are simply your personal statements about your perception of reality.

As such, they appear to me to be inappropriate on a Catholic site. Simply because we hold a perception does not give any of us a right to be express it wherever or whenever we want with impunity.

The expression of your perceptions, in my opinion, have become abusive restatements of untruths which paint a distorted picture of the belief of the Churches of the Catholic Communion. They also ascribe to the head of that Communion ideas and teachings which cannot be found in his teachings. That is my perception of the reality of your postings on this topic.

You, of course have every right to continue to hold that perception and to teach it. Posting on any site is not a right though. It is a privlege graciously extended by the host. In this case our host is Catholic. I don't believe that there is a right here to present distortions of Catholic belief without proving them to be reality rather than distortion. I think this is true since those who share the Faith of the hosts have practiced fraternal correction on these issues repeatedly.

I believe that this common bound of discussion holds true on Orthodox sites that I visit. In truth, what is perceived to be a distortion of the teachings of Orthodoxy is received there with much less tolerence and expression of love than the reverse receives here.

Bring your perceptions about our Churches here. Hold them up to the light for all to see and to examine. Present the evidence for the assertions. Then in Love discuss them and LISTEN to what others present. If they are addressed and found to be wanting, take them somewhere else.

You have brought your perceptions about the Catholic Churches and relativism as well as your perception that the Pope is syncretistic here to a Catholic site. Your perceptions have been recognized and have been examined. They have been judged to be distortions by most, I believe by all, Catholics who come here. They have shared this information with you and have presented in disuptable evidence from Catholic teaching and the words of the Pope in context to support their judgements.

Since that has been done, in my opinion, your repetition of misstatement of Catholic teaching on relativism and syncretism becomes Catholic bashing and counter productive.

Respectfully, I ask for the evidence. Failing that....

If you want to continue to present distortions, please present them in a forum where they might not be offensive to the hosts. Present them in a forum where they will not be perceived as evidence of rude behavior to Christians on the part of Christians.

Fraternally,
Steve

JOY!

Steve,
Thank you for you commentaries. The times I asked about the Pope's actions and intentions when he had kissed the Quran or fasted one day of Ramadan the thread was intentionally closed. Why Steve? I saw and read with my own eyes that would shock the Popes of the past. We cannot have a friendly dialogue? I don't believe my posts exhibited hatred of the Pope or any Roman Catholic. I certainly do not have to conform to Catholicism to be accepted, and I do express dismay over the actions of both Catholics and Orthodox. Should I be charitable in manners? Yes. May I not exhibit dismay? I do not believe that the Pope is a fool for Christ. He has too large of a flock to care for. I wonder where are the fools for Christ especially when the are needed to bring back the people of God to their right minds! You may despise and hate my words even though you do not like what I have to say but maybe one day you might share in knowledge & relate to similiar experiences or perhaps not until we reach the end of our journeys. Take care Steve.

Abdur the peace of God and his blessing for you.

I understand why what I wrote might offend some but it is the truth as I know it. That is why I quoted from Bat Ye'or and her books on the Dhimmi. The number of people killed in the Islamic conquest and Islamic colonization is what I have heard. Now when the West colonized the America's we did wrong to the native Peoples and the West also bought Black slaves from Moslems and native rulers in Africa to transport them to the Americas. I have read that 400,000 Afrians were sold to the West as slaves. Now there are more Native Americans alive today at this time than when the West arrived and the 400 thousand original African slaves has also multiplied into millions.

In this case we must look at Islam as the colonizer of the Middle East, N. Africa and Eastern Europe. The Islamic colonists killed off the native Christian and Jewish population and used Ethnic Cleansing. Since the native populations are eliminated I would say that Islam was the better colonizer! Islam left only a few native people alive! As to war the West did make it an art after hundreds of years of attack on the West by Islam. Islam is not just a religion but a political force. In this case defending Islam is like a White plantation owner defending Black slavery or the killing off of the Native American so he could steal their land. Political Correctness stops many Western scholars from discussing this issue but pretending it does not exist does not work. One wrong does not justify a second wrong.

I have seen on Al Gazira TV that bin Laden is a well respected member of the Islamic Community. I agree with you that the holy warriors of Afghanistan that fought the Taliban and bin Ladens group are the brave ones. They faced an occupation by a foreign army with the Taliban that was 60 to 70% Pakistani and the large number of Arab volunteers that attacked and invaded Afghanistan.

Critical deconstruction would examine the life of Mohammed and not just slavishly recover an Islamic Philosphy set in stone. There is no politcal freedom in Islamic nations as that idea is at odds with Islam. In the Sufi lays the hope for Islam. A love of knowledge and a kindness. The face of islam known here in the West is bin Laden and his ilk.

You are an honest man but could not refute what I wrote as I tried to be totaly honest. Even though I am a Byzantine by blood I hold no anger towards Islam. College professors may see me as a member of a dead race but I see myself as man with a rich history. I see as the victims of the Mullahs all the people in Islam that are held down. God does not want grinding poverty for his children. I have sat in the circle on Thursday night with Sufi and feel they are the true force for good in Islam but they are being repressed at this time.

The blood of Christ changes the world.

Robert,

Your post to Abdur is one of the best I've read. It was very thoughtful and offered a clear deliation of Truth.

Thank you.

Dan Lauffer

Angelus,

I am more than familiar with religious persecution since it was the persecution of Slavic Muslims by Christians in the Balkans that resurrected my moribund association with Islam---"If they are so intent on exterminating us, it would be a good idea to know why and an even better idea to know something about Islam!"---and brought me to faith in the God and the Truth. Ironically, the persecution and attempted extermination of Bosnian Muslims by the Serbs and Croats sparked an Islamic revival within the Slavic Muslim communities. The Croats and Serbs didn't look far enough ahead, did they? "What does not kill us makes us stronger." I can easily sympathize with people who are persecuted for their religious beliefs, whatever those beliefs might be.

Again, I disagree with your assumption that bin Ladin is considered to be a highly respected Muslim "within the Muslim community." You have a limited knowledge and familiarity with Islam, so I will not take you to task for your error in judgement, but you are just wrong and I will leave it at that.

Third world countries?

I agree with you that ignorance and corrupt leadership and bad morals lead to the conditions that prevail in third-world countries. But Islamic third-world countries are part of a greater whole that include Christian countries as well.

I adhere to my position on Christianity and the native peoples of pre-Columbian "America," north or south.

I also adhere to my position, posted multiple times on my part, that Islam has serious problems that will require much hard work to overcome. But so does Christianity. From my perspective, you seem to hate one another. And it is a fact that Christians have a long history of internecine slaughter that far exceeds the slaughter of Islamic internecine conflicts. I read once that the Crusaders killed more Christians during their ill-conceived invasion of the Holy Land and the Rum Empire than they did "Muslim heretics."

Muhammed? He was a human, with human weaknesses, just like Abraham, Moses, Saul, David, Solomon, and many other prophets of God. It is that earthly humanness that endears him to Muslims of my generation. For us, he withstands "critical analysis." That is all that matters, for us.

Salaam!

Abdur Islamovic

Slavic Muslim and..most likely..Balkan descendent of the Rum.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]