www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Esfigmenou Monastery et al

I find it strange that people will come to a forum that is mostly Catholic, but also Orthodox, a forum who's goal is to foster dialogue between Byzantine Christians.

As it is put on the main page, Discuss your faith on our Message Boards or just stop by to visit and read about Byzantine Christianity.

That these people will claim that the Patriarch of Constantinople is not Orthodox and sing the praises of a group of monks who are against dialogue with the Catholic Church and go as far as calling the Pope the anti-christ.

Kind of disgusting if you ask me.

David

David,

I agree. Such individuals are not representative of Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church has a firm and long standing ecumenical witness. We have had numerous official dialogues with the Catholic Church on the world and national level, we have had parish to parish exchanges, we are leading members of the World Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches, we seek unity, peace and concord with other Christians.

A handful of people, however, are out of sync with most of the Church.

Axios

Dear David,

Happy (Old Calendar) New Year!

The point is that we are to oppose heresy. Whether one agrees with the Esfigmenou monks or not is another issue.

St Maximos the Confessor is an example. In his day, the Pope of Rome and ALL the Patriarchs of the East - including the Assyrian Patriarch of Seleucia-Ctesiphon - UNITED in a . . . heretical statement about the Person of Christ, namely, Monothelitism.

Maximos, a humble monk, refused to have communion with the lot of them, saying that even if an Angel were to come down and teach us a doctrine that was different from the one we received from the Apostles, we are to reject it.

He was tortured, as you know, his tongue and right hand cut off and he was sent into exile.

One of the arguments against him was that he was refusing to obey the Church. If his situation existed today in some way, perhaps we'd call him, sin of all sins, "unecumenical."

His case is interesting since it involved all the Church leaders of his day - and we anathematize them still.

I don't know what the monks of Esfigmenou are thinking, I can't judge them. And neither should others.

And no one is blaming world Orthodoxy either - Catholicism is just as capable of showing intolerance for those who question church leadership etc.

Perhaps we should be looking at how dissent can be structured and directed, especially when it is conservative dissent rather than liberal.

The role of the "Fool for Christ's Sake" has very much been like this - dissent or prophetic warning/condemnation expressed in an accepted, albeit strange, way.

When a Tsar had returned from a battle in which he pillaged the city of Rostov, St Basil the Blessed approached him and offered him a piece of raw, bloody meat.

The Tsar looked at this famous Fool for Christ's Sake and smiled saying, "Don't be ridiculous - I never eat meat in Lent!"

"Then why do you drink the blood of Christians?" came the reply.

Alex

Alex,
Who determines what is heresy?

Who proclaims one to be in heresy?

Are you saying that these monks are opposing heresy? Wouldn't that make the heresy they oppose being dialogue with the Catholic Church? So then they are right, the Pope is the anti-christ?

Also, does this mean that the Patriarch of Constantinople is in heresy? That he is not Orthodox as a certain person here proclaims?

I think your reply is off target to what I am saying, and as you know, I am under the "new" calendar so new years was 2 weeks ago.

So Alex, we could say that the Patriarch's use of civil and ecclesiastical law to remove these monks could be seen as his move to oppose heresy.

David

Dear David,

It is precisely because we cannot know these things that we should respect one another's consciences.

The opposition of the Esfigmenou monks toward the EP has been going on for some time. There are others who oppose him as well on a number of issues besides the "ecumenical" one. Is it not interesting that the authorities chose this particular issue as the "straw that broke the camel's back?" There is politics behind this, as there always is.

That is just an observation. I myself don't consider the EP as heretical, and I don't think the Pope is the Anti-Christ. There are Orthodox -and Catholics - who do on both counts.

I don't agree with them, but I don't feel the urge to see them arrested etc. Inquisitional tactics should be behind most of us.

As for the business of wishing someone Happy New Year on the Old Calendar, my New Calendarist, Chinese and Tibetan friends all wish me a happy New Year on their days - and I wish them a happy New Year back. I am even in the habit of sending out Chinese New Year cards.

We live in a multicultural society that is tolerant of other's views, even when they contradict one's own.

Sorry you don't see it that way.

Alex

I think that he key issue here is not one of heresies. We're getting off the the thread. The key issue is the treatment of dissident monastics. The monks of Esphigmenou get on with their lives quietly, hurting NOONE. They live in their monastery and serve the Lord in their own extreme way. It may be extreme, but it is not forced on anyone else. The Esphigmenites take bread from nobody's mouth, they take no money from the Holy Mountain. This is true of other monastics of Athos. They hold fast to Orthodoxy, but disagree with the official face of the Church. In the past Constantinople left the Mountain alone, because ALL were oposed to her. Now that only one non-commemorating monastery is left the strong arm of the patriarchate and state is ready to obliterate it.

Another point - some of us who ARE traditionalists still look fand pray or unity. That is why we talk to brothers and sisters who share the Byzantine Tradition, though are not Orthodox.

With love in Christ,
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

But is not the opposition of the Esfigmenites rooted in their belief that the EP is heretical?

And are the two not in formal schism, especially from the EP point of view?

Was not that of the Zographou Venerable Martyrs likewise based in opposition to heresy? And Maximos the Confessor?

Yes, the Esfigmenites hurt no one. But, as Francisco has said, no one in schism or heresy can abide there. Latin Catholics and Armenians once had their own monasteries there, but no longer precisely because they are deemed heretics by Orthodoxy and Mt. Athos.

To remove someone's name from the diptychs means that one is no longer in communion with them ie. that a state of schism exists.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Does anyone have any news about what has happened to these monks since their eviction from the Holy Mountain?

Dear Mor Ephrem:

We still await the consequences as the monks were, according to the cited news item, given up to January 28 to vacate their monastery.

Are there any news/reactions from the other 19 monasteries on Mt. Athos?

Although the 20 monasteries are "self-governing,"
Greece exercises her governmental authority through the Governor of Mt. Athos, who has supervision over the Holy Mountain as far as civil order and security are concerned.

It also appears, based on internet postings, that Mt. Athos is, also, under the "supervision" of the Ecumenical Patriarch as far as "religious and spiritual" matters are concerned.

Can someone please add to these bits of information?

AmdG

The Fathers of Esphigmenou certainly will have no difficulty in finding sympathizers outside of the confines of the Holy Mountain. In fact, in the last few years a number of "refugees" have evacuated the Holy Mountain and found haven outside and with kindred spirits among the Old Calendarists, etc.

These "refugees" leave--usually--as individuals or in small groups, as well as quitely, and do not attract the attention of the Greek press---thank God. One of my wife's cousins was one of these "refugees." A real tough fellow, this lad. I would love to know what happpened to him. Or whether he was able to return to the Holy Mountain.

Abdur

Dear Abdur,

Well, I'm an Old Calendarist, but I'm a real pussycat and love everyone!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Schism and heresy, like beauty are in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, according to the Constantinopolitan version of law and canonicity, the Esphigmenites have no defense and no place on the Mountain.

Like many of the hermits of Karoulia and Katanoukia they are in formal schism with the patriarchate. They do not commemorate him and are therefore in an irregular position.

This is all true, but it is a clinical and legalistic truth which fails to apply Orthodoxy or morality to the situation.

The same strictness could be used to demonstrate that the present incumbent of the ecumenical throne is hoist on his own petard and falls foul of the canons of his own Church. However, the world and the 'Orthodox' of the world do not do this.

If they do, then like St Maximos and St John Chrysostom they fall foul of religious officialdom and are called, schismatics, heretics and fanatics. Yet, history treats such characters differently.

The early 20th century did not bode well for Orthodox traditionalists. In the 1920's, the Greek army desecrated traditionalist Churches, defiled the Holy Gifts - treading the Lord's body and blood into the carpets sanctuaries, exiled bishops and forbade Christian burials for them when they reposed, over-turned the Lord's shroud in Good Friday street processions and opened fire on peaceful protests.

BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM!!! We know their fruits - and we certainly no THEM.

The plans for the Holy Mountain are to start a rival brotherhood for Esphigmenou, ensconce them in the ethnically cleansed skit of the Prophet Elias and then install them when the fathers of Esphigmenou are banished, or whatever else the authorities plan to do with them.

Let us not under-estimate the Esphigmenou fathers. they were under siege from the Greek coastguard and police for four months in the early 1970's. They locked their gates and got on with their lives. They have now had their assets frozen by the Greek government and they get on with their lives. If they have to face martyrdom they will do so.

I think some members of this forum should try to understand Orthodox mentality a little more, before they judge the fathers of Eshpigmenou.

I am very uncomfortable with this thread. Up until now I have rejoiced in the bridge building achieved by this forum and have found true fellowship. The Esphigmenou problem is something which Orthodoxy has to come to terms with and try to rectify. It is deep and complex. Forum members do not understand its complexity and the sad history which surrounds it. It has caused enough tears and division within Orthodxy. I don't want to see the same tears and division within this forum.

I for one am not going to make any further comment on it. Less commentary and more prayers, may help the situation.

With love in Christ -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Father Mark,

First of all I would like to say that I respect very much your decision of not making any further comment on this question.

I consider that our differences about this topic have to do with two completely different ecclesiological conceptions. Both Catholic and Orthodox believe that the Church is One and Catholic. From my humble ecclesiological point of view to say that the Church is one means doctrinal unity (we believe and teach the same things), sacramental unity (we take part in the same sacraments) and hierarchical unity (our pastors are in communion between them, they take collegially decisions –synodikotis, sobornoch- and recognize the jurisdiction of primates –metropolitans, patriarchs-). Both Orthodox and Catholics claim that we are the Catholic Church, that is the Universal Church and not particular and sectarian churches out of the communion of the Universal Chruch , according to the ecclesiology of our father Saint Ignatius of Antioch. The problem, from my humble point of view, with the “traditionalist Orthodox jurisdictions” is that they have not doctrinal, sacramental and hierachical unity, and the Greek Old-Calendarist movement, with a lot of holy synods not into communion between them and which consider other old-calendarists as heretical, is a good exemple of it. Can they really claim that they are the One, Catholic Church and that all the others are out of the real Church of Christ? From my humble point of view, and believe me if I tell you that I have nothing personal against the Esphigmenites, when this community stop the commemoration of the Ecumenical patriarch, their local bishop, they broke the communion with all the patriarchates and autocephalous and autonomous Churches. Who is commemorated at the liturgy at the monastery now? Who is their bishop now? From my point of view there is no Church without bishop. Knowing that father Mark will not reply to my post all those interested in the ecclesiology and the problem of the canonicity of the so called “non-canonical” Orthodox Churches can find an article in Spanish about the topic at this site (http://www.geocities.com/pro_ortodoxia/) of the Synod of Milan, I am not wrong.
Yours in Christ

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

I apologise for having made you feel uncomfortable here in any way!

That was not my intention, and I want to reiterate simply that I believe that the Esphigmenites have been wronged.

My point about the heresy and schism is that it is a reality in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and we cannot ignore them.

I don't know the answer or how the Church can be more open to those who witness to a strict adherence to the Canons and Tradition.

But I believe innovative ways to make allowances should be made.

I agree that enough has been said on this topic.

I ask the Administrator or Moderator to consider closing this topic at this juncture.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

I know this topic has got enough.

But I think you have to listen this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/realmedia/sunday/s20030112a.ram

anyway, if the police decides to enter the monastery, it won't be the first time, as this happened in 1992 when some ROCOR monks from the St. Elija Skete were evacuated by the police because of the same reason.