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Dear Diak,

Sh-h-h!

If we want Amado to become EC, we have to keep telling him we are open to other languages.

I hope you haven't ruined everything now with your "Mnohaya Lita. . .

Perhaps we can tell Amado that it is a version of a Basque greeting?

Alex

Soooo sorry... then I guess letting him in on our little two-fingered handshake is completely out of the question...

Dear Diak,

Not unless he first agrees to cross himself that way . . .

If we're going to make him Eastern, let's go the whole nine yards!

Alex

Alex and Randy:

I heard you whispering to each other about me, loud and clear!

Remember, I've been an honorary Ukie, after Anhelyna, for at least 3 years now?

Once in a while in Church, I do cross myself the "right" way, provoking an inquisitive eye from my wife and kids and, I suspect, from neighboring pew RC denizens!

In my secret society, we use only one finger.

Amado

Hey guys, as much as I appreciate your banter (and I'm not saying to stop either)fundamentally I started this thread for ecclesiological discussion. Make jokes, but please make them in the context of theological dicussion.

I have just finished reading the 3rd chapter of His Eminence Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's 'Called to Communion' and discovered from it the meaning of the Eucharistic ecclesiology of 'Communio'. Ratzinger's study is very sober, as is typical of this great man, and very incisive. He steers an important course between the extremes of Protestantising the community by existing that its fullness is only in the parochial celebration of the Eucharist and the complete centralisation of the Church in the Papacy. I like where he takes the discussion and based on the evidence of Scripture and Tradition, its clearly expressed in the fact Peter can speak to all in all their different languages that the Church goes beyond the boundaries of the local community. However, the key thing especially for Ecumenical discussions is find an equilibrium between the local church and the Great Church. Concrete suggestions would be handy. Moreover, as Fr Gregory pointed out the Church does need a centre of Unity to stop the groups drifting apart. At Pentecost Babel was turned on its head, national groups were brought together in the common language of Christ. We have seen a reversal in the way the Latins and Greeks became alienated from each other from the time the Lombards became dominant in Italiae. We must find a way to make sure that doesnt happen again.

I take it that you guys dont like the dicasteries. Perhaps this article by Fr Aidan Nichols--particularly the concluding part--might give Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics a brighter view of the future?

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/anichols/orthodox.html

Awesome article Myles! Thank you so much...I'm going to copy this one for sure.

Your brother in the Lord,
+Fr. Gregory

Dear Myles,

Now it's you who is joking out of context!

We Orthodox and Eastern Catholics will find our own way to bringing Rome over to more correct models of ecclesial being, thank you very much.

Didn't someone tell you yet? Here, we are all about converting Latins in the first instance.

They were the ones who caused all the trouble, in the first instance, with their Filioque and their papal triumphalism.

The Protestants separated from the Latins, didn't they? Did not Martin Luther call the Eastern Churches the "Better Half" of Christendom? Remember what St Thomas Aquinas said - "All truth comes from the Holy Spirit!"

So when Rome wants to return to the "way we were," then we'll talk.

Until then, may St Frideswide, Patron of Oxford, keep you in her intercession!

Alex

Well Fr Gregory thank Fr Aidan for that one not me, I just pass these things along. As for your comments Alex, I dont understand what I said to insult the Eastern Church. Whatever it was I did not mean it in a negative way. Undoubtedly though after the Second Council of Constantinople there was a growing alienation of East and West. Latins stopped speaking Greek (and pure Latin for the most part) and the Greeks showed no desire to converse in the Latin tongue. I was just trying to stress the need to emphasise the Catholicity of the body so as not to loose touch with each other.

Oh I get it thats why you spoke about Luther you mean the part about Protestantising the community. Well that was just a way of expressing how in both East and West (its become especially symptomatic of Latin Christianity since Vatican II) there is a danger sometimes of overemphasising the local community. It can lead to a certain closedness. The parish or the See sees itself as a self contained local Church, with its own Eucharist and little need to look beyond itself to be complete. I think this outlook is very damaging to the ecclesiology of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. Surely its true that the cells of a body are all each self-containing but they depend on the healthy working of the body as a whole. When the localised cell cuts itself off from the body it dies, just as if the local community cuts itself off from the rest even with a valid Eucharist it looses its Catholic identity. That was the thrust of Ratzinger's point (and mine). I wasnt attempting to insinuate that Orthodoxy was equivalent to Protestantism. If it seemed that way, then I apologise.

Now the back to the discussion

Myles ,

You know you really haven't yet discovered how we can get sidetracked so often on somewhat serious threads .

Wait till you see us on a mad Friday.

I'm sorry - some of us , as you gather , have lots of wee 'in jokes ' and I fear they are only understandable when you have seen us at play.

We are good friends here - and most of the jibes are in fun - you'll soon discover when we are in earnest . By the end of the Great Fast [ and remember it goes on for far longer than 6 weeks here thanks to little Calendar differences ] we do start getting a wee bittie frayed round the edges but 'normality' soon returns.

Ah it's a long time since I was last in Oxford - I could tell you tales of visiting one of the Colleges at a time when females were not supposed to be there - those were the days

Anhelyna

Hey Anhelyena I'm not saying that the boys shouldnt be boys. I'd just like that they interweave their banter with a little bit of theology. I mean, I'm British, I'm not going to reprimand anybody for satiring someone else. I dont think a man can truly be born and raised in the land of England if he has not developed even a cultural sarcasm. What I was asking for was just a bit of theology on top of all that, thats all. I mean Venerable Cardinal Newman and Monsignor Knox did it quite well, and though of course I would not esteem Dr Al and co. quite so highly, I'm sure they're more than capable of linking a line of biting wit to an equally as deep slice of the ecclesiological pie

PS) You should come to Oxford sometime eat in Keble's great hall etc.etc.

Hey - why Keble - what's wrong with Jesus

Anhelyna

Dear Myles:

As presently configured, the Roman Curia and the other offices and services of the Holy See assist the Supreme Pontiff in his Petrine Ministry, i.e.,
each dicastery, juridically equal to each other, is envisioned to be of service to the universal Catholic Church.

Of the 9 major dicasteries, only two are specific-oriented as to their intent: the "Congregation for the Oriental Churches," which addresses only matters pertaining to the Eastern Catholic Churches, and the "Congregation For Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life," which is geared principally towards the activities of the Latin Church in this area.

By the very nature of its functions, the "Secretariat of State" covers both East and West.

I would disagree then with Fr. Aidan Nichols only as to his proposal for a "wholesale" re-structuring of the Roman Curia just to accommodate the Orthodox.

A little tinkering here and there, especially on the stated role and/or functions of the dicasteries, can be had or renaming some dicasteries that might be misconstrued by the East as purely of Western application.

No need to fix something that is not (yet) broken.

Amado

I thought if I was going to study Theology at Oxford I'd aim for the traditional heart of the high church party (plus there's a quad here named after Newman and his picture is in our grand hall).

As for the reform of the dicasteries I think Fr Nichols proposal is appropriately the minded. The dicasteries are the organs of the Holy See for dealing with the Church but the majority of that business is Latin Church business. The Congregation of Divine Worship and the Sacraments for instance deals with the Latin rite. I dont recall them publishing any documents on the rites of the Eastern Catholic Churches. The dicasteries have been conditioned by the fact that for so long the Roman Church has been one Patriarchate going it alone. The very fact we need another congregation to deal especially with the Eastern Catholics typifies this. I think Fr Nichols thoughts on this are very clear minded. The dicasteries are subject to reform based upon the needs of the time and the re-union with Rome of so many Eastern Churches claiming patriarchal jurdistiction would demand alteration such as Fr Nichols has suggested.

The Holy Father has asked us to take an Eastern perspective of this and see what we can come up with. Naturally, if the Holy See and the Ecumenical Patriarchate dont like it then we'll have to go back to the drawing board. However, I think what Fr Nichols has in mind would be acceptable to many ecumenically minded Orthodox Christians. I mean unless anyone else has a concrete ecclessiology that can bring the the Eastern Orthodox (and hopefully the 7 ancient Churches) to the discussion table in due time, what other choices do we have? The ecumenical venture will demand a more ecumenical outlook. If we want to make this work we have to build upon the patristic model of Church governance and update it within the current framework. Fr Nichols' as a son of the ressourcement is trying just that and I thoroughly support that vision.

Perhaps the approach proposed by Metropolitan Maxim Hermaniuk of blessed memory at Vatican II should be considered. Do away with all dicasteries and have a permanent Synod of Bishops to "take care of business".

Then if the RCs feel the need to have this or that "office of ..." let them have it. But don't tie up the life of the church in adminstrative bureacracy.