www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ut unum sint

The reason why, at least in the Western Church, we shouldnt do away with the dicasteries is because they make the daily business of the Church so much easier. Having certain offices permanently established for a single purpose makes them able to do a more in depth job. Anyway a permanent synod wouldnt do away with these it would just give them a new name. They'd simply become the secretarial staff to the Bishops providing the info and data needed to make the big decisions. That would be conciliar but bulky and unncessary according to Fr Nichols' ecclessiology, which right makes most of this bodies only pertinent to the Latin Church and its Patriarch. Dont you find the suggestion he makes in the final section of his article adequate?

Now Myles, I can deal with English theologians, but not anal retentive ones. We love to get off-topic and probably do it deliberately at times. You are just going to have to love us as we are.

Charles

Myles:

I don't think so.

That this Congregation has not published any documents on the Eastern Rites does not, per se, impugn its stated function of overseeing the integrity of sacred liturgy and the sacraments in both the Eastern and Western Churches of the Catholic communion.

The only limiting factor is the Congregation's due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (another dicastery with a "universal" function)in this area.

Amado

By the way . . .

The World Synod of Bishops is scheduled to have its XIth Ordinary General Assembly this October 2005.

The last synod was in 1994. There has been 20 total assemblies of the world Synod of Bishops, i.e., Ordinary, Extraordinary, and Special (National/Regional) assemblies.

His Holiness, Pope Paul VI, by his Apostolic Letter "Apostolica Sollicitudo," issued motu proprio on September 15, 1965 established the permanent world "Synod of Bishops" for the universal Church.

The Permanent General Secretariat of the Synod has its offices in Rome.

Who are you callin' anal retentive, bub...? ^_-

As for your comments Amadaeus. I dont think we will get anywhere by arguing about this point. The current strucutre of dicasteries seems grossly unacceptable to the Eastern Church, which is why one John Paul II threw his cards down on the table and asked them for suggestions. You're arguing for the current strucutre to be retained but in order to make the ecumenical venture work we might have to push the boat out a little bit. Certainly, for example, the Patrichates of the East would think it a bit rude to have the Congregation for Divine Worship intefering in how they do the Divine Liturgy or trying to advise them on it. I think if we want to make reunion work we have to make a few concessions. Its not like the dicasteries have never been reformed before.

Just kidding, Myles - at least about the anal retentive part. But if you are so focused on a topic that our getting off-topic annoys you, then you are going to be annoyed quite a bit on this forum. I think the current form of government has essentially worked for the Latin Church, so I suspect it will be retained in some form for a long time. There may be curial pressure in Rome to keep things as they are. But that doesn't mean the Patriarchs couldn't be given more independence and status, or that the Latin Church's relations with the East could follow a different model than what exists in Rome.

Dear Myles,

The Roman Church may structure herself as she wishes.

But this is not the first time someone, EC or RC, has expressed the view that the "Congregation" in charge of the Oriental Churches should be done away with as a vestigial remnant of the old Roman supremacy over the "uniate" Eastern "rites."

We are not primarily discussing theology here, but the various aspects of Roman jurisdictionalism and bureaucracy that is entirely man-made and can be corrected, deleted or reformed any time the Roman higher-ups feel it should be.

However, there is the argument about bureaucrats not wishing to reduce bureaucracy.

Be that as it may, there is no reason for the Eastern Congregation to continue in its functioning - except to keep the Eastern Catholics in line to prevent them from offending the Orthodox.

Rome should wake up and see that Orthodox theologians and Churches have already affirmed the EC Churches' right to existence and also believe they should have as much ecclesial independence as possible.

It is Rome that keeps making political blunders in that area.

And, one correction to what you've said, we like to discuss Eastern Christian theology here in the first instance.

How talk about Roman jurisdictionalism and bureaucracies figures in this isn't as clear to some as it might be to others.

Alex

Alex I would have thought it clear from my posts and my support against Amado of Fr Nichols' position on the Churches of the East that I am not attempting to support the continued existence of dicasteries relevant to the Orient. Indeed, part of my argument--as it is part of Fr Nichols' argument--is that many of these bodies are solely relevant to the Latin Church and thus the East is not in need of them. Given the statement of the Balamand document that after reunion the Eastern Catholics will re-commune with the Orthodox I assumed that everybody would've been clear of where I stand on the reform of the dicasteries.

You sound somewhat irriated by my statements, which is fine, I wont ask why. You seem to have had a short fuse for me lately so I wont bother with any anecdotal commentary. I will continue instead to wonder why my askance that theology and jokes being interveaved as one seems to you like a slur against the whole board? Especially since I tend to involve myself in such asides as you are well aware, and simply asked for a slight concession in this so I could try and paint an ecclesiological picture of the future acceptable to East and West 10 years on from 'Ut Unum Sint'.

Ah well, at least Fr Gregory liked the article by Fr Nichols' and seems to understand what I mean when I advocate the dicastery reforms that the good friar has proposed for the future.

Dear Myles,

I apologise to you for having given offence and for appearing to have a short fuse.

Such sentiments should not exist among loyal subjects to Her Majesty the Queen!

Please feel free to prescribe a penance for me . . .

Alex

Dear Myles,

I apologise to you for having given offence and for appearing to have a short fuse.

Such sentiments should not exist among loyal subjects to Her Majesty the Queen!

Please feel free to prescribe a penance for me . . .

Perhaps I'm just jealous because you are in England and at Oxford, no less . . .

Miserere me, Domine . . .

Alex

A short fuse??? Alex??? Huh???

Dear Charles,

Yes, I was as shocked and surprised at this allegation as you . . .

But to be dressed down by a Theologian from Oxford is no disgrace!

Alex

"Love...is not resentful" and what can I ask of my brother if he has a speck in his eye if I have a log in my own eye? I dont want you to do any penance ^_- I wasnt offended. I figured I was offending you and I attributed that to cross wires somewhere. I'm no priest so I wont be presumptious and ask for some sort of compensation. I apologise on my own part if I appeared to dress you down, and seek your forgiveness and prayers.

In regards to East-West relations toward the end of the 90's, Archbishop Vsevolod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church made a statement (this is not ver batim) "We talk of unity among the Orthodox and Catholic Churches-if we are serious let's get down to doing real business instead of issuing yearly statements." Please remember this is not his words but I was applauding his statement as the Orthodox have always "feared" the Eastern Catholic Church, I know this from being in the Orthodox Church for 10 years. This same archbishop visited the Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastery of the Eparch of Van Nuys, CA last year. This archbishop has also visited the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy's, (I can't remember which ones exactly, but their respective websites have the photos to view) so over the years since our Pope has opened the doors of the Catholic Church to the Orthodox and has said the Orthodox can receive all the sacraments of the Catholic Church too. This has made me realize that the process of a united Orthodox and Catholic Church in FULL EUCHARISTIC COMMUNION with one another-would in fact be in a better, much better position to openly proclaim the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ as one Church and this would make evangelization better for all instead of one church stating that the other is proslytizing etc. Wouldn't this be better for all of us?