www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Vatican is targeted

Dear Gaudior,

You too make excellent points, just as Ray has!

The first time I visited Constantinople was when I was only 14 years old. I will never, ever forget the anger and the upset I (who was otherwise a normal shallow teenager :rolleyes: ) felt at seeing those minarets and those huge medallions with Islamic writing in MY faith's grand former church of Haghia Sophia! I was also sad to see the office and church of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople reduced to a smallish compound at the Phanar.

Christians have become so complacent that it is truly fearsome. Getting back to the Vatican and Rome, I will add its protection to my humble prayers. The Western seat of Christendom, from the architectural grandeur and religious artistic magnificence of the Vatican and the Renaissance, through the many, many holy relics of our Christ, the apostles and the early church martyrs is, thankfully intact...if only the complacent and the lukewarm could see Istanbul and Haghia Sophia to realize how lucky we ALL, who call ourselves Christian, are to have it.

With love in Christ,
Alice

Ray.

You're definately right about your remarks about Europe and the USA. Europeans, Catholics in particular, who were the founders of Christian civilization, have lost more of Christianity than Protestant America where is still possible to find people with universal and traditional values, and Christian morality.

In thr USA there are still lots of Protestants who still have many of these traditional values, just as there are many Jewish, Atheist or Muslim people with high moral values, but that does not mean they're truly Christian, does it?

Evangelicals and members of these sects are probably as different from us as the Muslim and Jewish religions. There's a big difference, I do not understand why Americans do not see it that way. I do believe that we Orthodox and Catholics have almost nothing in common with them, religiously speaking.

I have not seen so much hostility from the Muslims I know. I was in Chiapas (region of Mexico with many Muslims) and all the muslims I saw were quite respectful of their neighbours and live peacefuly with them.

None of them preach disrespect against our flag and culture, the Muslims do not respond to foreign interests as the Evangelical sects do, and these are the ones who have divided the communities there and who have created problems.

I wish you could read something about the problems that the Protestant sects are causing (there's not been a single riot caused by Muslims in Chiapas).

Many of the people who aid the Chiapas muslims are American Muslims do you know that?

I was speaking in broad brush strokes. None of these other places you mention have such a strong influence on the international world as the US. Please take me in context. I was speaking �out of all the Christian nations of the world - which is the most center stage�? Most influential?" and that nation is the US... the lone 'superpower' of the world.

I am not saying the US is 'right' or wrong... I am making a historical observation of the world 'stage'. China might relace the US in years to come(it would like to).

Let me know when Asian or Mexican becomes the international language and replaces American English as such. Let me know when Mexico becomes a super power. (I an being flippant to make a point and not to be-little you personally - it is a just a debate and discussion).

Do you now see my point?

If the world thinks �The West� it thinks - America.

And Islam sees Christianity as the supporter of Zionism (Jews).

Judea-Christian. That is the foundation of - the Western cultures.

There is no answer to the Palestinian Jewish fight. Israel fights for its very survival.. And ferociously due to its history of anti-Semitism which plagues Europe. The most anti-Semitic nation in Europe? France. More synagogues burned there every year than anywhere else. The other anti-Semitic nations of history? Germany (Nazi) and Russia (Communism). The anti-Semitic trio of history.

If one would like to predict where history is going - one needs to know where history has come from.

If you are mistaking me for raising an �alarm to all Christians� I am not. Most of Christianity will remain untouched in the years to come. It is only where the cultures of the Judeo-Christian world rub with the Islamic world. THIS - is where the �irritation� and wars are - now. In areas in which the Judao-Christian world and the Islamic world pressure each other. Where the two cultures are pressed upon each other. Geographical that is where you will see these wars. That is compounded by internal Islamic fighting.

Any religion has its groups which turn to fundamentalism. Fundamentalism among the Jews is called Zionism and a belief that the Jewish race has been promised to inherit the physical earth (they can have it!). Fundamental Islam has the same concept and to get there - all Jews and all Christians must be eliminated by any means. Very �Arian� like (Nazi). These , of course, clash - and both believe that God is �on their side� and wants to them to eradicate the others. There is fundamental Christianity also (KKK, and such) but Christianity restrains its fundamentalists.

To all Muslims� the Jews killed every prophet God has sent� and Christians corrupted the prophet Jesus - into a God. Hence - God sent Mohamed to right things. There is a moderate Islam which emphasis that all will be righted by each Muslim living a holy and peaceful life (and God will do the rest) and there is a militant minority which believes in violence.

If you notice in any of the Al Qadea (if you have seen them on the news) the train by attacking dummies which have a star of David and a Cross - on them. The cross is not America - it is all Christianity.

�Crusaders and Zionists� is what they say - if you remember your history when Islam and Christianity last fought - and your WWII background regarding Zionism (the justification to eradicate the Jews).

The goal of the Palestinian organizations is to root Israel out of its lands which the UN gave the Jews to form Israel. The death of Israel. Which Islam sees (Zionism) as that which killed all the prophets and its existence put of the day of Allah establishing his kingdom here on earth.

Again� I paint in broad strokes and not all Muslims (in fact the vast majority just want to worship God and raise their family in peace just like you and I do).

All wars - are a clash of cultures�. Not countries � cultures.

And that clash has begun. Islam and the Judeo-Christian West.

What is taking place was inevitable. The Mid East can not remain isolated any more. The world is now too small and communication to efficient and far reaching. The changes in the mid east (desires to rid on monarchy and become democratic like Iran) - cell phones - international news and TV - all this has cascaded into the Mid East - and it is uncomfortable to this place which has remained centuries behind and in blissful isolation.

It is the - pain - of the Mid East - the growing pains - that give grounds for the current fundamentalism which advocates turning back the clock to its days of isolation. It is the uncomfortable desire for freedom - that they feel. Like all humans. And it will come - but not without mistakes along the way.

This whole situation� in the evolution of cultures - will eventually turn out OK because all fundamentalist eventually burns out. It usually subsides but not until after a huge upheaval. It eventually self destructs (like communism). This too - shall pass.

But it will not be in my life time.

�These things must come�� in every generation.. And this one is - ours. I do not think either the �end of the world� is coming upon us or that Christianity will disappear. In the mean time we must endure this clash of cultures as things work themselves out. This world is neither the Kingdom of God nor the throne of Satan (intrinsically evil). It is the �mean time� as God forms us for something better.

I actually offer no 'cause' and no 'cure' (as some might expect me to) except what some good person wrote above (alice for one) that our 'part' is the daily little things that are Chrsitian for us. Not to steal. Make the sign of the cross at meals (even in public)... daily prayers. We can not change the world (and God will not allow us to) we are supposed to change - ourselves. A more spiritual life makes us like Noah (climb into the ark and ride out the storm). Neither a pacifist nor a war monger - each of us have our daily duties that God has assigned and for some that will include military service.

This, of course, is my admittedly half baked opinions and I thank you for allowing me to know your and I will further consider them.

-ray

Dear Ray K, I couldn't agree with you more, and I have said this many times myself! (Great minds think alike? )

Dear Mexican,

You have to understand that as Americans we are part of a culture with certain core beliefs and attitudes that have been formed by our founding fathers that were Protestant. So to some degree, no matter how Eastern Catholic, Orthodox, or traditionalist Roman Catholic one is, being that we are also Americans, we all, no matter nationality or denomination, share a common ethos, and a common patrimony of values and ethics which are intrinsicly Protestant.

Ofcourse, this is my own personal analysis of the question.

Wishing you a most blessed Easter,
Alice

Dear Mexican;

For your question... I dunno? I have not given it much thought. I guess, that like you, I take people on a case by case basis and try to gauge their heart.

While it is not surprising to me that the Muslim community down there, has made a transition to Western culture while remaining Muslim - I did not know that some Evangelicals (probably these sects are fundamentalists also) are causing problems there.

There is a small Muslim community up here in Connecticut, and they are very nice people who have �escaped� the mid East madness.

I remember when the US invaded Iraq� one of the doctors up here is from Egypt and his mother called from Egypt - and I heard him say �No.. clam down mom.. No America is not going to invade Egypt!� and his mother told him that most Egyptians were very surprised and felt lied to when they saw Iraqis cheering and taking down the statue of Saddam. They are very confused between Al Jeezera and the official government. They are lied to by - everyone. No one over there knows what or who to believe.

They are a very emotional people and easily swayed ( and used!) because they have little contact with the rest of the world.

-ray

Without prejudice to the "Christianity" of the United States as a nation not being established, and which I sincerely fail to see even after living here for over 4 years, I need to say that if the only way to be influential in your "world" is to have brutal economic and military power, then I am glad my country is not influential at all, and I am not so sure I actually want to prevent the Islamic Fundamentalists from wiping out such "world".

Sorry.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Shalom...

I am not quite sure which country you come from but I can assure you that I would refrain from insulting it if I were on one a forum with many of your countrymen.

Also, as I said before, this country was founded on Christian principles, and although you may not have discerned Christianity in those that you have met so far, I can assure you that Americans are the most egalitarian and compassionate people on earth. That is why there was never a social class system here, and that is why my grandparents and the grandparents, great grandparents, and great-great grandparents of most Americans came here for a better life from their countries. And no matter the accent, the color of their skin or their religious affiliation, they all got along and prospered from each other in an unprecedented way, uniting themselves as Americans.

Also, as far as super powers go, well, I would take this country, warts and all, over the former Soviet Union any day!

Have a blessed Holy Week and Pascha, and let's focus on what it stands for...love and peace...rather than political commentaries and anger.

I presume that America is hosting you for future benefit of some sort. Since you chose us for that priveledge, how about being just a little more charitable to your host country?

In Christ our Lord and Saviour,
Alice

Dear Friends,

Prayers for the families of the 30 American soldiers killed in the last three days of fighting in Iraq!

Yes, the minarets are a symbol of Muslim oppression of Orthodox Christianity.

However, I believe that even minarets can be appropriated by Christians in time . . .

At the CHurch of the Resurrection in Jerusalem, there is a bronze plaque at the front that tells the story of the Muslim fellow who stood at the top of the minaret there and saw the Holy Fire dart to and fro throughout the Church.

He then loudly proclaimed the truth of the Christian faith and became so enthusiastic that he lost his footing and fell to his death, being baptized in his own blood . . .

When I was there and looked up at the minaret from which he fell, I couldn't help but think that God used that high place to bring a Muslim to Christ . . .

Alex

I always offer up my Eucharist for the conversion of Muslims to Christ. Not only for because they'd be better off, but because of the huge threat Islam poses to Christians' lives and souls.

Imagine, too, if all those Mideasterners returned to Eastern Christianity.

Dear Booth,

Yes, and if ever the Muslim world should become Christian, their mosques need only be topped with Crosses.

And the minarets could be used to call them to prayer not five times a day, but seven times for the Divine Praises!

We can dream, can't we?

Alex

Though I'd never want to live in an Islamic country, in all fairness, I must ask, what do Moslems see when they look at the United States ? Unfortunately, rather than seeing a Christian nation, they see a country where abortion is legal, homosexual marriage is becoming increasingly acceptable, pornographic television, rampant drug use, a staggering divorce rate,multitudes of children born out of wedlock, high crime in urban areas, and alot more. In addition, that same country has very visable corporations in almost every country in the world, along with their military in more than 60. So just as Al-Qaida is attempting to export revolution to the entire world, it also looks like the US is attempting to export their Godless institutions to the rest of the world as well.

Dear RayK:

I am inclined to agree with Memo re your inaccurate conclusion/observation that the U.S. is a Christian country.

If the measure to be used is based on numbers alone, slightly less than 50% of the total population of the U.S. indicated any religious affiliation in a survey made in 2002. Conversely, more than 50% of the U.S. population are not affiliated with any religion nor profess any religious beliefs at all.

Fortunately, we, Catholics, account for about 23% of the U.S. total population (2003) or almost 50% of all Christians in the U.S. On the other hand, Prostestants (of all denominations and pseudo-Christians) constitute slightly over 50% of all U.S. Christians.

We could very well say that the U.S. is a Christianized country and U.S. Christians take their faith more seriously than others.

In addition, nowhere in the world is the exercise of the freedom of worship guaranteed and given more protection by the State except in the U.S.

Christians in the U.S. are just more vocal; they shout louder as a significant minority!

Amado

Dear Mexican:

Frankly, I am appalled by your naivete regarding Islam in general.

Throughout history, Islam has not compromised its premise to "eradicate" the world's infidels: translated, all non-Muslim.

Although Jews and Chirstians are also considered "peoples of the Book" and should be "respected," it happens that the strongest opposition they have thus far met are the "Zionist" Jews of Israel and in the diaspora. So, we have the cyclical and unending "war of attrition" in the Middle East, which began in biblical times.

Christians to them are "easy" picking: you slap them on one cheek and they turn the other cheek for another (wake up call)!

Nationality and ethnicity (including familial and amity considerations, I can assure you) are subsumed under any Islamic legerdemain, which is becoming more and more the "cultural" modus operandi in non-Islamic countries.

My native country (85% Catholic) has been "at war" with her Muslim minority of about 5 million for the past 500 hundred years and no resolution is in sight. And now comes the Abu Sayyaff, an avowed Al-Qaeda operative, joining with the various secessionist and rebel groups operating mainly in Southern Philippines.

Take heed, between what you call "non-Christian" Evangelical/Fundamentalist American Protestant cross-wearing "satanic cults" and fundamendalist, gun-toting, and bomb-wearing Islamicists, please give me the former. :rolleyes:

Any time!

AmdG

Dear Lawrence,

You make a good argument, to be sure.

But I think what the traditional and extreme Islamists are most afraid of when it comes to the West have more to do with democratic rights and gender equality than the more negative aspects of Western society.

They are horrified at the thought of women being considered mens' equals or, horror of horrors, getting an education!

Whether North America and Europe are Christian societies, or else secular societies with the vestigial remnants of a Christian culture, the fact is that we are all now seen as "Christian crusaders" by Islamic terrorists and militants, whether or not we've had military training etc.

Perhaps if the West is going to be targetted by terrorists as "Christian targets - just perhaps this will open its heart more to Christianity? Perhaps . . .

Alex

Dear Memo,

I don't know if one can even speak of one country in the world being "Christian."

There are Christian cultures around, but that is different from being truly Christian.

As for the U.S., one may disagree with its foreign policies and cultural perceptions etc., but when I visit the USA I see many families and individuals, Protestant and Catholic, joining hands in restaurants to pray, being charitable toward their neighbours and otherwise trying to be open to the Gospel of Christ.

In the aftermath of 9-11, the USA declared a day of fasting and prayer in mourning for the victims and the President himself attended a church service in the national Episcopal Cathedral in Washington.

And what did Canada do? It held an outdoor, politically-correct and politically-sounding "memorial service."

God bless America and the American people - they know what faith is and what sacrifice is.

No one is perfect, to be sure.

Not you and not I.

Alex