www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Vatican is targeted

Certainly they are not, but enough are that it has created a lot of problems.

And not all illegal immigrants are Mexicans either. The key word here is not "Mexicans", it's "illegal" - that is the problem. It is against the law to sneak across the border. The fact that thousands (millions!) do so every day, and that there are people waiting to hire them, doesn't make it any less illegal.

If you think the laws should be changed and the borders opened, fine. That's a legitimate viewpoint. But since 9/11, don't you think we have a right to try and exercise more control over who comes into our country?

I think this thread has gone off-track.

Sorry, Ray - just call me Amtrak!

Ah, but you did display such great passion. I am an admirer of passion. And so did Memo! display wonderful passion.

Pasion: Pain suffered because you hold something dear.

If I could gain that passion, and if we could turn that fiery passion to our day to day cooperation with the living God who arranges for us our daily events and experiences - why then the church would be full of saints in no time at all.

I think the biggest sin of life is to be passion-less. Yes, and if passion means suffering and pain, then I pity the person who would do almost anything to avoid it.

"You are neither hot nor cold... and so I spit you out of my mouth!" (Jesus in Revelations).

We are usually people of the West who do not dedicate themselves to anything. If someone were to ask us: "Is there not anything? - for which you would give up all to obtain?" and our answer would be hesitation - while we 'thought' about it. We have substituted the head for the heart.

This is one of the things that the Mid Eastern mind despises about the Western person. They believe in dedication - they will die - for a cause. And our dedication turns on a dime� it turns on bad news.

[News Flash] Associated Press: Dateline Iraq�. "American soldiers died today and their bodies were mutilated�

� and Americans read that and want to thrown in the towel. �Bring the boys home!!!� � and do you know what?? � the Mid East person despises us for that! Currently Iraqis are holding three Japans� and have told Japan �Withdraw your troops or we will burn them alive.� - and the thing to notice about this is that they think Japan might withdraw its troops! They see Japan as Western, not dedicate, no passion. Afraid of dedication to anything, anyone, or any cause. The Mid East mind always thinks that if American TV displays horrible things - Americans will throw in the towel and sink back to America. And they despise us for this.

Now, back to my subject�

If an honest man takes a stand, he can come to find out he is wrong and then dedicate himself to something fuller and truer. But if a man does not take a stand, it is because he is afraid to find out he may be wrong, and so he never finds out. He grows stand and deadened.

God, can have all things, and anything turn out the way he wishes.

A man may think he is doing the greatest good - and it turn out that he brings about a great evil.

I am sure that Judas, thought himself to be in such a position (a disciple and confidant of Jesus, one of the �12�) that he could be the very person to ignite the spark that would begin the liberation of Israel from Roman occupation, an illegitimate King (Herod), and the highest ranks of the Temple priesthood being in corruption. Judas may have event - thought - that this is what Jesus wanted him to do??! (�What you do - go - and do it quickly.�). But no, Jesus did not �talk him into it� - Jesus simply knew that Judas� heart and mind were already dedicated to his own plans to be �the one� that history would record as starting the revolt that ascended Jesus to the throne.

Judas made a mistake, a sin. But - his FATAL mistake and sin was not turning to Jesus and saying �I am sorry for what I have done. I was wrong. I sinned. I committed what I knew was sin because I thought the final results would fall like dominos and bring about a greater good. � but instead, he took his own life.

There is no error, nor sin, too big for God to forgive and correct and turn to ultimate good. If we do not believe that - the reason that we do not believe it is because we do not believe in the full capability of Providence. We rather believe more in the mechanical God we have created for ourselves� a God who is limited, his hand are tied and he too must abide by the laws of physics and time, nature and history.

There is only one, fatal, sin� and Judas committed it when he ended his own life instead of facing God and say �I am sorry. I was mistaken. I have sinned and given up an innocent man (the sin) thinking it right because of the end I desired it produce. � Rather than face his own failure - he took his own life. Blessed is the man who can face his own failure, knowing that he is really just a limited human being.

True humility, to me, has always seemed to be very combined with the word - humanity. To a person to look and see in himself the true limitations and failures that we humans have - is to recognize that we are just humans. We are, not in control. If anything has turned out well in our lives it is because of hundreds of little circumstances that we had no way to know about - came together by God�s design - and created for us the island we inhabit.

We are at war it is true. Any one who does not believe that, is a fool. And it is a war that can not be negotiated or compromised down - to peace. Spain was intimidated by the Madrid bombings and does not want to give cause to the enemy to attack it. Does this not remind you of the start of WWII?? Sure it does. But Spain will have no peace from what she has done (baked down) and I n fact the Mid East mind now despises Spain even more. Even more, now, is Spain the enemy of radical Islam.

All these things we notice, but if we simply have our minds on our own day to day Providence� responding in moral ways to each daily event.. Then we are like Paul described that we should be .. We are like Oxen pulling the plough, straight because we have blinders on. Our attention is on the purpose before us and because it is there - then the things that happen off to the side of us - we only take note of. They shall not really move us from our work at hand. Our soul be at peace even if the world be at war - because we know that Providence brings to us - only what is good for us - in order to make �me� - into a saint. He will not allow to come to us what is not good for our spiritual growth. But, if we are to have that peace then our minds must be on, and aware of, that day by day spiritual growth.

As always, this is just my own opinion, and just because I wrote it does not mean I live up to it.

-ray

I have to agree with my sister. This post has become so rancorous that it should cause us all to stop and think about the time of the Church year in which we now are and give pause before we post other words devoid of charity.

Many years,

Neil

I feel the same way

I've had enough of it

Michael

Ray,

We will be in another, hopefully better, Place before we will know whether, in the last seconds of his life, Judas repented his acts. In Christian charity we should all pray that he had the opportunity to do so and acted on it.

Many years,

Neil

I agree, Neil! My son, in defense in Christianity to his classmates, often says that he hopes to see Adolph Hitler and Bin Laden in heaven. ALso, best wishes to all this Pascha!

Sure! Why don't you issue visas to the alien terrorists in your country?

Oh, sorry, you already did that.

Pope John Paul II said that the Law is such only as long as it is focused on the human condition. Your immigration laws do not focus on the human condition, and as long as they remain that way, your using them as an excuse so label some of us as "illegal" has absolutely no meaning.

As I said on a private message about this thread, it is really interesting how many Americans style themselves "Christian", but you just need to push the right buttons to see some true colors of selfishness, pride and lust for power and opression.

You want to exercise more control on your borders? Why? Do you want to find members of Al-Qaeda to show them all your love, and to know who have you been praying for all this time? Do you want to identify them so you can turn your other chick on them? You want to find them so you can tell them how truly you forgive what their fellows did to you?

When you can answer a resounding YES to all of these questions, then I'll believe you're a Christian people.

Until then, you just delude yourselves... but not the rest of us.

Shalom,
Memo.

I think perhaps our emotions are getting carried away. The 'heat of the moment' and so on.

Let us end this thread.

-ray

Well, RayK, you were the one that took it up again, after I conceded.

If y'all are going to call me "rancorous" because I defend the country that I love from people who put it down, fine and dandy. I won't promise not to continue feeling that way inside, though.

"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world.� - Socrates

" There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." - Gal. 3:28

Nationalism leads to phyletism. Nationalism leads to divisions amongst the Body of Christ.

Let us not forget that St. Paul does tell us to pray unceasingly.

With a 'budget' like that, why limit to 7 times?
come onnnn - spend those prayers.


toodles & God bless, sUSAn

Dear Freckle-Face!

Christ is Risen!

Of course, we should pray always!

I'm not against that . . .

But I was referring to the Divine Office of the Church that follows the pattern of seven formal, liturgical times for prayer in the day - and once at night.

This comes from the Psalm 118-119 "Seven times a day I praise Thee . . ."

St Benedict arranged the psalter to be read through once each week by punctuating the day with seven groupings of psalms at the Hours.

So if you don't like that, you'll have to take it up with King David!

And I don't know if you'll get very far with him . . .

You know how kings are . . .

Christ is Risen.

Alex

+ + +

Hi Alex,

Good to know! Thanks, I must have skipped right over that part of 'The Rule' - or was just too bleary eyed sleepy while I was reading it.

St. Benedict and St. Gertrude the Great are at the top of my fav. Saints list.

Good that I have the opportunity to learn something new every day. especially humility. I really need to pay better atten.

toodles & God bless, sUSAn