www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Vatican is targeted

Reuters Updated: 10:21 a.m. ET April 02, 2004

ROME - Videotapes of a key al-Qaida suspect urging followers to destroy Rome have reportedly been found by Italian police, heightening concerns about security in Italy and at the Vatican ahead of Easter.

Tapes featuring Abu Qatada, a radical Muslim cleric named by Britain as the spiritual inspiration for the lead Sept. 11 hijacker, were found during recent raids in the northern Italian town of Cremona, weekly news magazine Panorama reported on Friday.

"We must destroy Rome,� Qatada is reported as saying on the tapes. Qatada was arrested in October 2002 and has been held in a British prison for over a year under emergency powers.

�The destruction must be carried out by sword. Those who will destroy Rome are already preparing the swords. Rome will not be conquered with the word but with the force of arms,� Qatada says in transcripts of the videotapes seen by Panorama.

The tapes were found in Cremona in February during the arrests of a handful of Muslim leaders suspected of plotting to bomb Milan�s metro and Gothic cathedral.

Italy raised its security alert after the Madrid train bombings last month. Local media have said security has also been stepped up at the Vatican ahead of Easter Sunday, when tens of thousands are expected to gather at St. Peter�s Basilica.

Panorama said Qatada made religious references that indicate the Vatican could be a potential target.

�Rome is a cross. The West is a cross and Romans are the owners of the cross. Muslims� target is the West. We will split Rome open,� he is reported as saying.

Defenses in Italy were first raised in November when 19 Italians were killed by suicide bombers at a military police base in the southern Iraqi city of Nassiriya.

Italy also beefed up security around churches ahead of Christmas on concern symbols of Christianity would be targeted for terror attacks.

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We can all be united in prayers that the Good Lord spare Christianity from such an attack upon Peter - who will be so important in the years ahead. All arguments upon the Papacy pale in the gathering darkness. Armageddon it is not - but it is a call to each to cease divisions and united in the simplicity that is Jesus.

-ray

Dear Rayk,

Perhaps the Church should reinstate the Templar Order?

If they already say we're all Crusaders, then we should at least look the part.

Alex

Yea you see?

The Vatican, Rome, the Western Church headquarters are in danger, targeted by terrorists, the life of the Pope, his Synod, etc.

Ohhh but heeeeeee you have Mr. Berlusconi backing this "war against terrorism" and all its falseness.

Last month we saw how the poor Spanish people paid the price for the eager individualism of one man alone who wanted to be friends with the big bullies of thre class. He put his country against the will of his people in a war which was not his war, and isn't the war of anyone but the "dark hand of free trade" and its apostles.

This Neo-Protestant "cruzade" is already creating divisionism among Apostolic Christians within their own churches, and make inocent people targets of attacks that will be the result of a war which is not our war.

Dear Mexican,

As events over the last few weeks have shown, the unfortuante attacks on Spain cannot be blamed - on the whole - on the acting Spanish government's policy towards Iraq. Even through Al-Qaida issued a letter saying that attacks against Spain were begin temporary halted until they saw Spanish troops leave Iraq, the terrorist campaign continued there. Over the weekend, we had the first ever terrorist-suicide attempt in (Western?) Europe. You cannot blame the Italian PM for an attack on Rome/Pope etc (if that ever happens...)Rome is a visible threat because of its status in Christianity...it has nothing to do with whether the Iragi war was justified or not.

Anton

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mexican:
make inocent people targets of attacks that will be the result of a war which is not our war.

Um, innocent people have ALREADY been targets of attacks - by Al Qaeda - which is the primary reason why, however muddled or bumbling our tactics are, we are at war with them.

Or have you forgotten:

[Linked Image]

Hello to all

By Mexican.
Last month we saw how the poor Spanish people paid the price for the eager individualism of one man alone who wanted to be friends with the big bullies of thre class. He put his country against the will of his people in a war which was not his war, and isn't the war of anyone but the "dark hand of free trade" and its apostles.

I don�t know if you all knew, last Friday morning the Civil Guard of the National Spanish Police found another 12 kg of explosives on the tracks of the High Velocity Train that goes from Madrid to Seville... coincidently a couple of days before Mr. Rodr�guez Zapatero publicly stated that perhaps Spain was not going to retire from Iraq. Leaving aside the political issue, there can be no doubt that terrorists won't care whether or not a country participated in Iraq's invasion, it is very clear they want to attack all the innocents they can, and if they are Christians, the best

On Holy Week you may know that Seville has lots of traditional Catholic Processions and tons of people go there... a bomb in that train would have killed much more than 200... hence the Vatican is lets say the greatest "jewel in the Crown" for the terrorists.

Lets pray for Our Lord to protect us all from this war.

God bless

By the way, I'm already arguing with some SSPX-ers in another Forum about their use of the term "neo-Catholic" to describe Catholics who are not in rebellion against the Pope like they are. Just out of curiosity, how do you define "Neo-Protestant"?

Lest you all forget, the Vatican is the smallest country on Earth defended by one of the best-trained army/intel organization in the world. Unitl proven otherwise, we should probably assume that the Swiss Guard are up to whatever any extremist would like to throw their way.

Yours,

hal

It has been my experience that America (where about 80% approve the war on terrorists and the US doing what the UN should have done for Iraq) and almost anywhere else - have different views.

I am not interested to much in discussing politics as to who is right and who is wrong� but I do make these observations�

It seems to me that the United States is now the last vestige of Christianity. Europe leads the pack for many decades for abandoning Christianity. I am told that in Europe and even Italy - local churches are desolate. There is hardly a soul to be seen in them. Much of Europe sees Bush as a religious fanatic because he sometimes uses the word God and speaks of militant Islam like Al Queita (spelling) as - �evil�.

I have been to French web sites where the president of France describes America as mostly populated with extreme poverty and ignorance, exploited by the super rich. (Thanks to the export of Jerry Springer I imagine).

I believe that Germany leads the way in gay marriages and gay life styles. But I know for certain that Germany was shaken during Y2K because its strong fundamentalist Christian block really thought the end of the world was coming with Y2K. The whole country was swept up by it. So there seems to be no 'normal' Christianity left in Germany.

A German exchange student was over my house and, guess what, he was living with drug dealers! How that happened I did not know - but I asked him what Germans thought of America and he said just about the same thing. I asked if he would every come back to America and he said �No�.

On the home front I was speaking with a good friend (non-religious) and he was downing Christianity - to a point where I reminded him that the effects of Christianity are something that we take for granted so as to not to even recognize them any more.

Below - I am speaking of radical Islam... as opposed to moderate Islam.

I reminded him that without the centuries of Christianity - most of the world would be like the chaste of India with its untouchables, or like most of the Muslim world where where: if there was suspicion that your sister had fooled around with anyone you (her brother) would be designated the one to shot her while she sat watching TV. No trial, no witnesses, just sispision is enough. Or on accusations of adultery you were free to burn your wife alive (Indonesia).

The concept of basic human rights which we take for granted, and large portions of the world still do not, these basic human rights were a produce of Christianity. Trial by peers, government by democracy, so many basic human rights that - without Christianity all these centuries - just would not have come to be. We are so used to them we take it for granted that every human being holds these rights to be good. And - they do not.

It seems to me that in any country (previously Christian of any sort) the fall seems to begin with people falling away from normal Christianity - and that falling away is followed by a surge in religious fundamentalists - and then the normal people react to the wacky fundamentalists (and with good reason) and then Christianity is now looked on to be - a problem (thanks to the fundamentalists!).

So it seems to me that vast portions of Europe, which look on America as being fanatic Christian fundamentalists - are putting their own experience upon us here in America.

Militant Islam, which has the goal of convert of kill all Christians (people of the cross) and all Jews (Zion) in order to establish an earthly Kingdom of God - see America as being the �head� of the �cross�. In a large way they are right because the Western world arose as the results of Christianity - and America is the central power of the Western world.

I believe that Christianity (in its forms) has been on a revival in America for several years. And the rest of the world (while falling away into secularism and away from Christianity) sees that. To them (who had experience fanatic and fundamentalist Christianity in their own countries) to them - America is a Christian fundamentalist country. To hear Bush mention God at all, or the keyword 'evil' (a religious concept) that is enough for them to peg Bush as a religious fanatice who believed God has sent him to wage war on the world in the name of God. Now don't laugh because this is a very common view in Europe.

It seems to me, that fundamentalist Islam� having its goals of killing off all who are not radical Muslim� and killing off moderate Muslims who do not agree with them - certainly will not be at peace with secular Europe. Even if Europe is more secular now - it basic institutions and culture is firmly rooted in Christian concepts. Human rights that arose from Christianity (even if they seem disconnected from current religion).

Secular Europe as a whole - sees Christianity (America) and Jews (Irael) as the major cause of world problems. And they think that their secular stance makes them neutral and not a trget of Al Quetia. However radical Muslims do NOT see neutrals as people �not to bother� but as people to also convert of kill. In fact - easier to attack and more quickly to be turned into Muslim nations.

Radical Muslims want to bring down the entire - Western way of civilization (what Christiany has built) and replace that with Shriha (Islamic law).

Al Quetia will strike at the head of the Western world (America) for publicity - and the tail (Western coultue countries which are now secular). Because it will make more and quicker progress in the later.

I do not think our friend from Mexico here, realizes that, like the Nazi movement, our Mexican friend is also on the list to be converted or killed. Mexico, being non-muslim, being Western, being rooted in Christianity.

To the radical Muslim - tolerance equals - infidelity to God - and all infidels (tolerance Muslims also) are for the sword. The goal here is to make the entire world - Muslim - because that is what Allah wants - and that will finially bring heaven onto earth.

This whole world situation reminds me of the rise of the Arian Nazi movement - where negotiations and compromise were not possible. I remember seeing movies of Nevell Chamberlain returning with his signed peace accord to the cheers of everyone - while Hitler laughed and just kept on invading more countries thinking that he would deal with England later. Hummm.. Seems very �Spain� like.

The largest minority in France is Muslim. So France has its fears and hopes for no trouble - but it will certainly get trouble. And I have seen reports (out of Uzbekistan) I trust telling of Russia flying in Muslim fighters and guns into Afghanistan in order to fight the American and UN occupation troops.

My take on Russia (from people who have been there) is that nothing has changed in the way of government except a change of flags. The country is still run by gangsters.

So, some of us Americans can be befuddled by the rest of the world and wonder how it is that they do not take into account that America was - attacked in a way it had never been done before - and we had a right to go to war and a right to end the Saddam problem. The reason is - that a whole lot of the world despises America for its Christianity. They are irritated by American being the last hold of Christianity and they tend to agree with radical Muslims who think that Zion (Israel) and Christianity - are the cause of current problems. What they fail to see is that all non-radical Muslims (all of historical Europe) are also the target of Al Queta.

I believe Europe will wake up - but late in the game - as the count of booms keeps mounting higher over there.

Right now, America�s will to fight seems to be coming mostly from the Protestants. I should include Britain. But Europe will soon find out that its distaste of Christianity - will not give it peace from Al Quetia. Once they realize this - they will begin to rally with America and Britain. In the mean time America and Britain will take the brunt of the battle. One off shoot of this will be a greater cohesion of the varied parts of Christianity. A - uniting - cause by the threat to all - Christianity.

In no way do I think this is Armageddon or that the �end of the world� is coming. I note that - there is always war in parts of the world and war troubles every generation - down through history. But what we see in the news papers today will grow and grow and I will not see the end of it in my life time.

Anyone else care to make - predictions? Of any kind?

-ray

Dear Ray,

You make some very good and valid points. Thanks for sharing them.

The lack of religion in Europe, the original center of Christendom is very, very sad. It is amazing how quickly Europeans have forgotten the suffering and devastation of WWII--and I am sure that they were religious then. They are now consumed by materialism, the good life, and their new found affluence.

When I visited Italy a few years ago, paying homage to the great churches there, I was sick to my stomach to see them turned into huge tourist traps...atleast in NYC's St. Patrick Cathedral, the tourists tip-toe and respect the fact that it is very much a living and breathing house of God. People in prayer are in abundance in all the pews and in the chapel of our Our Lady.

I didn't care how much of a 'weirdo' I looked like, but I made sure that in everyone of those great churches, I would find a kneeler or chair somewhere and make the sign of the cross and pray or venerate. At St. Mark's of Venice, atleast there were two old ladies doing the same thing. They were shocked to see a relatively young modern woman doing the same thing. I wanted to scream to the hordes that this is first and foremost--A CHURCH!!!

May our Lord God have mercy on all of us!!!
May our brethren throughout the Christian world realize what a precious gem and rich patrimony they have, because they may lose it one day.

Sorrowfully,
In Christ,
Alice

And lest anyone doubt what Alice has pointed out, please remember this:

http://www.patriarchate.org/ecumenical_patriarchate/chapter_4/html/hagia_sophia__page_1.html

NOBODY who has not stood in Constantinople and seen minarets on the greatest Church in the East, in which hundereds have been martyred for their beliefs, even before the Muslims, who strove to preserve their faith intact, can not be moved to tears at the sight of the minarets. As RayK points out: Christianity itself is under attack, and this is NOT a new enemy.

There is a difference this time: In ourselves. We have grown indifferent. If someone utters the name of Our Lord in a NON-blasphemous manner, we are SIMPLY SHOCKED! PRAYER? Before meals? In PUBLIC??? Mymymymymy! Radical Fundamentalists. Put you down! Fasting! Church more than twice a year! HORRORS! (No, Ray, I know you meant the more radical Fundamentalists who rewrite the Church daily to suit their agenda, not Christians who actually adhere to an apostolic church and the rules laid down by it)

But we no longer think ANYONE capable of SERIOUSLY attacking us for our religious beliefs because so many of us have NONE that it comes as quite the rude awakening to find other that do. Atheists get annoyed at Christians because their consciences are stirred unpleasantly, not for any other reason, so they fight that...Muslims have a convert or kill mentality toward the infidel...so again, we are under attack...

The solution here is to pray for peace, of course, to pray for the unity of the faith, as it does not help us to be warring with each other while we are under attack by other darker forces...and...

Remember always to reach out a hand to strengthen others in time of trouble, or in time of struggle or temptation. If someone you know is struggling with the Fast, invite them to dinner (fasting) at your house...(and give recipes after...variety helps!) These SO MINOR daily things...a fasting meal begun with prayer with other faithful can do so much to strengthen someone who is slipping. Give someone older a ride to church...especially during Holy Week...night services are very dificult for elderly drivers who do not trust their night vision...LITTLE things...

Gaudior, thinking we need to be attentive...

Ray, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. You said I do not think our friend from Mexico here, realizes that, like the Nazi movement, our Mexican friend is also on the list to be converted or killed. Mexico, being non-muslim, being Western, being rooted in Christianity. I believe you are completely right. During the last ten years at least, the muslim population has rised in Mexico and some fundamentalist groups of Islam have appeared. I realize we are also on the list for being Christians, in fact about 4 years ago or so there was a very small bombing to a bank performed by some islamic fundamentalists, with no victims thanks to God, this bank is just next to a big Church which is usually full. I really pray to Our Lord to save us ALL from this war.

God bless you all

Dennis Prager made an interesting point in his column today -- that even though all Palestinian Arabs have some legitimate complaints about the way they're treated in Israel, when was the last time you heard of a suicide bomber being a Palestianian Christian?

Hi,

Now I've heard everything.

God forbid this EVER come to pass!

Aren't you forgetting Latin America, where most of the population is not only Christian, but actually Catholic? Aren't you forgetting "Mexico, siempre fiel"?

Aren't you forgetting the thriving missions in Asia?

Aren't you forgetting the steady, courageous missions in Africa?

No, my friends. Even if their enemies manage to wipe out of this world the entire United States and Western Europe, Christianity would still be in excellent hands elsewhere.

I think religion is just another hijacked weapon and not an actual cause of the conflict itself, but if there is a real, significant religious issue, it is between Muslims and Israelites and their supporters.

The United States and Western Europe qualify much better as supportes of the religion-oriented State of Israel than as "the last vestige of Christianity".

Shalom,
Memo.

I am told by someone who visits the Holy land almost regularly - that Christians have diminished to very small numbers because neither the Muslims nor Jews have any interested in them at all. They are marginalized to no support from anyone. They are not Jewish settles so Israel has no interest in them and they are not Muslims so the Palestinians have no interest in them. They (Christians) are the non-existent people that no one protects nor gives a hoot about.

I speak, in generalities and broad brush strokes.

-ray