www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Will the Real Rock Please Stand Up?

Dear Dr John,

First of all, Happy New Year!

Secondly, that is all very nice, wedding feast analogies and all that.

Who says there should be one theological interpretation of this or that? Church bureaucrats, usually.

I heard this from our own church bureaucrats last night at our new year's levee for our bishops.

Again, theologians, academic and armchair (I belong to the latter or at least I have a paper mitre I sometimes wear when I am reading the "Eastern Churches' Review" and other items), tend to see things in a very idealized way.

We say that our idealized way is the way things SHOULD be, then we seem to assume that it is the way things are, in some way, and then we walk away satisfied.

In fact, we can call ourselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome," redefine Papal Primacy et al. all we want.

All of it is simply a mental construct that reflects not one iota of the administrative realities of contemporary church life.

Alex

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I feel, however, that it is not the administrative things that really matter. The Spirit of Eastern Chrsitianity is where we must start. The structure will follow in its own course. Until we start thinking like real Byzantines (a process I see happening more and more), we will never achieve our goals. We are, however, slowly getting there in my opinion.

Dmitri

Dear Dmitri,

I agree!

But that's O.K. for you to say, living in a warm climate as you do

How are Mardi Gras preparations coming along?

I also think Dr. John would appreciate hearing more about these as well!

He really knows how to have a good time - a real achievement for a former Jesuit scholastic, wouldn't you say?

Alex

From an Eastern perspective, the warm climate presents a few problems for those of the Slavic traditions - namely cassock material. The Greeks know how to keep cool in this kind of weather but the Slavs seem to still be working on it. That being said, the city is preparing well. The band-stands are going up as I write this. My only real chore is to convince my fellow Ruthenians that they don't need to wear ashes on Ash Wednesday. Old habits, as good as they may be, die hard.

Dmitri

Dear Dmitri,

And "Byzantine Mardi Gras" would have to be on the Saturday preceding the first Monday of the Great Fast, correct?

Alex

reply: Yet the question wasn't who they were 'for' but rather who they were by. Vatican I did not represent the Traditional Eastern understanding of Primacy in the Church.

reply: Which Catechism? Surely not one based on Vatican II? Because Vatican II taught that the Eastern Churches have a theology other than that of the Latin West. I don't believe in "double-truth" either. I believe in two limited human ways of expressing the same truth. As St. Gregory of Nyssa once said, "when it comes to speaking about God, every man is a liar." How much more can this be true when speaking of authority in the Church? And only one of those ways was expressed at Vatican I.

reply: Yes that's it, ChristTeen, just reject it out-right without even considering what they're saying. Whatever you do, don't listen to those dreadful "AD Hominems!" If you listen to them, they may "hokus pokus" you into some creepy Eastern Heresy. Eeew! Then you won't be able to call yourself a 'papist' anymore or a 'Catholic' because the two are synonymous.

reply: Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe in Petrine Primacy too. We even believe in Old-Rome Primacy. We just have a different Traditional understanding of it. That's all. Being "living interpreters" of that Tradition, as H.H. John Paul II has called us, we will not abandon our Faith even if a Latin can argue us under the table with one hand and foot tied behind their Latin back. Many of us are very open, although, to sitting down and comparing our two respective traditions, working together to find a form of Primacy acceptable to all the Apostolic Churches. Why don't we work for that?

Wm.

reply:
Doggone you're pessimistic, Alex. Was the bishop's meeting THAT bad??? All this pessisism has now made me depreseed. And to think, until you deflated me, I thought with my mental constructs I could convince this entire forum, all the ancinet Churches, all the world and even... ZOE!

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to keep my idealized mental constructs for myself (at least, as you noted, it keeps me happy). This reminds of a poem:

Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

I'm gonna make this forum a happy place if I have to knock every one of y'all's Eastern and Western heads with a hammer! You stultior asinos! (That's way wrong but you know what I'm getting at...)

May our Holy Father, St. Paul the First Hermit, pray for us unto God!

ChristTeen287

But if a simple Patriarch is going up against an infallible Pope whose official doctrinal proclamations are protected by that same Holy Spirit, then what?

Where did this happen in Vatican I?

ChristTeen287

Dear Ghazar,

I'm sorry to sound pessimistic, Big Guy!

Realism can sometimes be that way, a real bummer!

And that tension between idealists like us and church bureaucrats focused on the bottom line will persist.

(And yes, the meeting was THAT bad!)

But I'm upbeat today and ready to take on the world!

Alex

Dear Qathuliqa Mor Ephrem,

This reminds me of what Bl. Pope John XXIII said:

I am only infallible when I speak 'ex cathedra.' And I will NEVER speak 'ex cathedra!"

Alex

I'm a total supporter of the Papal Infallibility...and I LOVE that quote!

ChristTeen287

Dear ChristTeen,

Good Pope John had a reputation as a bit of a jokester in his time.

He refused to eat alone, as was the papal custom, and he was very sociable and outgoing.

So much so, that Italian media began to criticize him for going out and about during the day too much.

The Pope said, "Well, fine! From now on, I'll only go out at night!"

And when he met with an ambassador to the Vatican, he asked how his family was.

"I'm a bachelor, Your Holiness!" came the reply.

"Ah, just like me!" said the Pope . . .

Alex

Dear Alex:

Since we are on Papal Infallibility again, is it still okay to repeat this old joke?

Oh, it's okay, for ChristTeen's sake!

Blessed Pope John XXIII loved to visit orphanages, hospices, and hospitals in and around Rome unannounced.

One day, he chose Christ Hospital, somewhere in the City, to pay a visit to the patients.

When the Mother Superior realized that His Holiness was already at the entrance to the Hospital, she rushed out and immediately greeted the Holy Father:

"Your Holiness, I am the Superior of Christ!"

"Good for you, Sister! I am only the Vicar of Christ!"

AmdG